Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[Dr Awesomesauce]

It's too bad people are so bloody sensitive.

It is possible to love sports stadia and support 'project x' and still understand that new stadium deals are almost always a complete scam perpetrated against the taxpayer.

Do a little research and don't take things so personally.

[Welkin]

[QUOTE=Jaws;7095460][QUOTE=Welkin;7095419]

Katz isn't getting a free building so your arguement is disingenuous and simplistic at best. The reality is that plenty of businesses/industries get subsidiesof one form of another, and the Oilers/Katz are no different. The automotive, aerospace, oil, fisheries, TV/film production, horse racing, the arts.....all receive public subsidies of one form or another.[/QUOTE]

Evidently you don't get sarcasm, and there I was trying to be disingenuous and simplistic. BTW for those of us keeping score, a subsidy is one thing, spending a couple of hundred million on a billionaire's plaything is another. Why does one business get a massive subsidy, yet the guy across the street does not? It can't be the jobs since they both provide jobs. It can't be the economic impact since they both provide an economic impact. Is it strictly the fact that the general population does not go out and purchase Stantec jerseys and scream "Go Engineers"?

[Nicko999]

Originally Posted by Riise

You have to be naive to believe the owners when they state that without these stadiums local residents would not spend their money on other forms of local entertainment and billions of disposable income would simply evaporate.

Local residents will still spend that money, the income will not disappear . However, a stadium usually has the ability to attract tourists much more than let's say a residential skyscraper.

At the end of the day, a stadium is a money making machine for its owner just like any other building you might decide to build instead. Like I said, the only problem I have with stadiums is that they should not be financed with public funds. The owner needs to pay a big chunk of it like the Molson did with the Bell Center (payed 100% of it).

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Nicko999

At the end of the day, a stadium is a money making machine for its owner just like any other building you might decide to build instead. Like I said, the only problem I have with stadiums is that they should not be financed with public funds. The owner needs to pay a big chunk of it like the Molson did with the Bell Center (payed 100% of it).

Teams can't pull that shit with the big cities. That's why Van, Tor and Mtl's rinks were privately funded.

[Oilkountry]

It's hilarious how sensitive you guys are.

Videotron Centre was literally built ......FOR QUEBECOR.....DONT GET THAT WRONG. weather you choose to believe that or not the katz group is just the Quebecor of Northern Alberta. NHL or the Q it doesn't matter quebecor has a sweetheart deal more than katz ever did. They literally built an arena for them cost free and charge him rent. But that's not fun to complain about so let's just pick on Edmonton who has had billions in development downtown from the arena alone.

Please someone try and justify the QB deal by telling to me how keeping the Oilers in Edmonton with a new arena is different then trying to attract an nhl team to QC with a new arena.

[esquire]

^ Who is defending what happened in Quebec? There is a difference between commenting on a building's design and appearance and how it was paid for.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Who is defending what happened in Quebec? There is a difference between commenting on a building's design and appearance and how it was paid for.

It's just funny how everyone always brings up Edmonton whenever there is a hint of funding talk but noone ever talks about how Quebec's new toy was funded with 100% public money or that Regina's new stadium also free for the riders on public's dime both of which will spur no development in both cities. It's like those situations are acceptable because they aren't as fun to trash and complain about. Sport's teams in other cities are completely off the hook for putting up $0 but katz only putting in 115M in direct funds is unthinkable. Edmonton is always the "go to" topic of conversation whenever anyone needs to prove a point about a flawed funding model. Yet it has had the most positive economic impact than basically any sports venue built in this country....ever and it was built with both private and public funds. If you wanna whine, Whine about videotron centre and the spineless government in Quebec

[esquire]

^ You're right, Quebec's funding model sucks too.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

it's just funny how everyone always brings up Edmonton whenever there is a hint of funding talk but noone ever talks about how quebecs was funded with 100% public money or the Regina's new stadium also free for the riders. It's like those situations are acceptable because they aren't as fun to trash. Sport's teams in other cities are completely off the hook for putting up $0 but katz only putting in 115M in direct funds is unthinkable.

Not quite, the Riders are funding $40m+ ( $25m in the stadium budget and then leaseholder improvements on top outside of the normal budget) plus will remit $12 from every ticket to the city to pay off a $100 million loan (they have been collecting $8 to $10 per ticket and spending it on improvements themselves over the last number of years; this pulls that money away from them), so that's $125m+ out of $278m+ that will be funded by the team, its sponsors, and its fans (remember the Riders are "community owned" as well, so there is no owner reaping the reward of a new stadium, it gets cycled back into the community).

Yes, the province is giving an $80 million grant (they have a policy to fund 30% of a complex in Sask up to $80 mill), and the city is on the hook for the $100m loan from the province to be paid back by ticket fees if something should go wrong plus their share of the stadium at $73 mill. But its been a pretty transparent process on who is paying what, and we had a municipal election mid-process, so we the citizens voted in a mayor and councillors that supported the project.

The comparisons drawn here during discussions were that we support for other cultural endeavours (museums, libraries, art galleries, concert halls, etc) and deemed that as more people attend Rider games than the other facilities each year, it made sense for us as a whole. Some disagree, which is valid, but we voted to accept it by our choice of government.

And considering the economics of the league, the Riders are paying a pretty decent portion of the cost, and in a pretty realistic way... If the amount was too high just for optics, the Riders would lose money and need to be bailed out by the fans/city/province anyway. That or sell the team, which would be a non-starter.

[tomthumb2]

Meanwhile in Calgary.....

http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columni...l-waiting-to-hear-the-flames-arena-plans

... pretty much a story about nothing.

[osmo]

The Riders went the public route but chose the most responsible way to do it. You take land already under public control to save on costs and luckily the Riders are "non-profit" and can be corralled into setting up a model where user fees are paying for a large portion of construction.

There first plan for the domes big top downtown would of ruined their books. This plan was way more realistic financial wise.

In Canada its going to be hard to get around public funding, especially for Stadiums versus arenas but you can have a fair plan that works if its a hybrid of the Winnipeg and Regina models, though which both have warts, won't plunge either community into budget hell. Regina will be spending more money in capital improvements to its water systems then on Mosiac, that is the scale that public investment should be capped to.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

It's just funny how everyone always brings up Edmonton whenever there is a hint of funding talk but noone ever talks about how Quebec's new toy was funded with 100% public money or that Regina's new stadium also free for the riders on public's dime both of which will spur no development in both cities. It's like those situations are acceptable because they aren't as fun to trash and complain about. Sport's teams in other cities are completely off the hook for putting up $0 but katz only putting in 115M in direct funds is unthinkable. Edmonton is always the "go to" topic of conversation whenever anyone needs to prove a point about a flawed funding model. Yet it has had the most positive economic impact than basically any sports venue built in this country....ever and it was built with both private and public funds. If you wanna whine, Whine about videotron centre and the spineless government in Quebec

The reason why no one brings up Quebec on here is that there are few people from Quebec (City) on this thread. And also perhaps because even if there were, perhaps the public funding of an arena in Quebec is more palatable to people there due to a different mentality I suppose. Though yes, when the Quebec City project and its details were announced, there was much criticism of it for essentially the same reasons as those being voiced in Edmonton.

It's also probably due to the project being further along, whereas in Edmonton there is still a way's to go. Once the arena and entertainment district are in place in Edmonton I suspect the criticism will subside.

There was also similar initial criticism in Ottawa of the renovation project for Lansdowne with mostly public money, but you don't really hear any of that talk these days.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by Nicko999

Local residents will still spend that money, the income will not disappear . However, a stadium usually has the ability to attract tourists much more than let's say a residential skyscraper.

Municipalities wouldn't build a residential skyscraper to attract tourists but they could build other cultural venues, which could be much more cost efficient than stadia.

[MacLac]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ You're right, Quebec's funding model sucks too.

Funding model? Make no mistake, Alberta taxpayers paid for it plain and simple, ie, - ME!!!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by MacLac

Funding model? Make no mistake, Alberta taxpayers paid for it plain and simple, ie, - ME!!!

Haha, paranoia running rampant in some quarters, I see

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by osmo

So the Arena influenced Stantec more-so then getting CRL carrots and goodies in tax holds to build on site?

So what will Edmonton do if revenues from the TIF/CRL don't swell up to cover debt servicing as projected?

All the current development in Edmonton has be going on fine with the Oilers playing at Northlands.

This story isn't new. How many American cities attempted to parade the same schemes to citizens to provide rich men welfare to build new stadiums. If I can recall no arena/stadium related TIF in America has ever made any money. Why is Edmonton different?

I don't think you understand how a CRL works. Let me help you mmmkay

http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/projects_redevelopment/community-revitalization-levy.aspx

A risk, a calculated one, they were exceptionally conservative on their expectations and are going to surpass them by a considerable margin.

As discussed 1293012 times before, development occurred pre-arena and will occur post-arena, but the commitment to the arena and Ice District accelerated many other projects and will shift where and how development occurs in this city.

Being first is a great ambition.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by MacLac

Funding model? Make no mistake, Alberta taxpayers paid for it plain and simple, ie, - ME!!!

Unless you live in Edmonton proper, you did not pay a single cent for this building.

[Coldrsx]

Invest, invest in the building

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Jaws

Unless you live in Edmonton proper, you did not pay a single cent for this building.

I think he's griping about Quebec's rink.

[MacLac]

Originally Posted by Jaws

Unless you live in Edmonton proper, you did not pay a single cent for this building.

Huh?! I was referring to the QC arena.....as an Albertan taxpayer subsidizing their way of life - this includes their new shiny tenantless arena.....