Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[king10]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

That is not reasonable when you are talking about community rinks in small towns. They don't have the corporate base to pitch into the cost of the facility.

There is also the problem of second tier cities with major junior hockey league teams. The feds consider these "professional" teams, and won't cough up any monies for new arenas housing these teams. Yes, major junior hockey is a "business" in the routine use of the term, but it is a small business by most measures and in no way should be confused with the conflated excesses of major pro sports. There are a number of mid sized cities stuck with aging arenas which can't get funding to help with replacement facilities. This is just plain wrong.

In 10-20 years time there will be a huge backlog of aging rinks in cities of 10-200,000 people that will all require urgent replacement. You're just punting the problem down the road........

Ontario has done a nice job of renovating or replacing its aging major junior rinks. The partnership should be between the province, city, private sector and major jr team. It can be done.

You can't have the Feds giving millions of dollars to all 60 major jr teams because their rinks are getting old.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by Nicko999

Like I said, you have to be naive to think stadiums are ONLY beneficial to the sports team owner. I do think no stadiums should be financed through 100% public funding though.

You have to be naive to believe the owners when they state that without these stadiums local residents would not spend their money on other forms of local entertainment and billions of disposable income would simply evaporate.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by king10

Ontario has done a nice job of renovating or replacing its aging major junior rinks. The partnership should be between the province, city, private sector and major jr team. It can be done.

You can't have the Feds giving millions of dollars to all 60 major jr teams because their rinks are getting old.

The province of Quebec also provides funding to these types of sports facilities.

They put up 25M dollars for a new 5000 seat junior rink in Gatineau but the city fumbled the ball a few months ago.

[Calgarian]

I don't think Edmonton got completely hosed on the arena deal, and that is because this may be the single most important project in their downtown, possibly ever. It's the district and revitalization of the area that sets it apart, and no, most of this development wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the arena. Edmonton didn't get a great deal, what was the final taxpayer bill, $200 million? and that's likely on top of infrastructure upgrades required to support the Ice District (really, Ice district?).

[SHOFEAR]

I prefer to view stadiums and arenas in the same light as any other cultural performance space. Don't blame sports in that they kick the shit out of other cultural amenities in the dollar values at stake and actually make money for those involved. Arenas, Museums, Art Galleries, concert halls. Should public money go towards galleries that showcase paintings for highly valued art, or should a concert hall that some promoter books for a concert that makes a couple hundred grand in a single night, how many cities have built facilities for farmers markets that allow vendors to make money...etc

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

It's a fantastic piece, thankfully (hopefully) will not apply here.

Of course it applies to Edmonton. To say otherwise is naive.

Katz is receiving a low interest loan from the city for his pet project. I don't believe he will ever pay taxes. He is also leasing tonnes of parking in and around the arena district - parking built with taxpayer money most of which was $5 each evening or in some cases free - so people that want to come downtown during an Oilers game but don't want to necessarily attend the game itself, $25 or more for the pleasure of parking outside. Those are just a few of the perks he is receiving.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

I prefer to view stadiums and arenas in the same light as any other cultural performance space. Don't blame sports in that they kick the shit out of other cultural amenities in the dollar values at stake and actually make money for those involved. Arenas, Museums, Art Galleries, concert halls. Should public money go towards galleries that showcase paintings for highly valued art, or should a concert hall that some promoter books for a concert that makes a couple hundred grand in a single night, how many cities have built facilities for farmers markets that allow vendors to make money...etc

The obvious difference is that if governments didn't step in to build arts venues like major galleries, top-flight concert halls and that sort of thing, then the only places that would have them would be Toronto, maybe Montreal and Vancouver, and that's about it.

No one doubts that sports teams make a lot of money, which prompts the question of why government should be building venues? You don't hear about governments building new bank branches for CIBC, why does a hockey or football team get treated differently?

The only reason is because the leagues prey on civic insecurity... smaller cities cling to sports as a big part of their identities, and the leagues use this as leverage. Why else would the City of Edmonton borrow $480 million so that a billionaire with a profitable business could move it out of a building whose main problem is that it wasn't as profitable as it could be?

Now this is where cold usually steps in with a litany of figures telling us how the CRLs are exceeding expectations and it will make money etc. etc. But come on, only someone who is either extremely naïve or out-and-out lying could tell you that team owners would bring government on board if there weren't major losses to absorb.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

so people that want to come downtown during an Oilers game but don't want to necessarily attend the game itself, $25 or more for the pleasure of parking outside. .

Or they could just park on the street...

[Migs]

Looks as though the roof trusses for the Regina stadium have arrived. Also you can see the semi truck access & loading docks.

https://twitter.com/yqrstadium/status/621011834468872192

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Nicko999

As long as the stadium/arena is frequently used, they are good investments. The Bell Center was the fifth busiest arena in the World in 2012 based on non-sports tickets sale. Because the BC was 100% privately funded by the Molson brothers (and currently own the arena), they probably keep 100% of the revenues. The city however, receives a lot of tax money generated and let's not forget property taxes that are in the millions every year.

Like I said, you have to be naive to think stadiums are ONLY beneficial to the sports team owner. I do think no stadiums should be financed through 100% public funding though.

Nearly all of the money spent at hockey games and concerts leaves the Montreal area. Most of the players probably live part time or full time in other cities not allowing the money they spend to cycle through the economy thus negating the multiplier effect. All those acts coming through the Bell Centre take the money with them to whatever city they live in. Again, all that money spent on tickets to see the performer ends up leaving the city and serves no positive economic impact. If anything, the net effect is negative.

In Montreal's case, the arena was funded privately wasn't it? If so, it's not nearly as much of a economic drain to the city as Edmonton's nearly 100% subsidized arena. I'm sure most of those supposed arena-infused projects , like the office buildings and condos would have happened, and in all probability near or in downtown irregardless of the new arena being built. Like some corporation really cares about being next to an arena!

There will be some new restaurants and bars which could help the arena district but won't make any positive impact to Edmonton as a whole. Heck, it's debatable if the entire downtown will benefit as much as they claim in those ridiculous ads. People who want to attend a show at the Winspear, Citadel, art gallery or go the library downtown and have become accustomed to free or cheap parking just might forego the pleasure of paying $25 to park outside in one of Katz's many sub-leased and city subsidized parking spaces.

[Coldrsx]

Roger's place public art, remaining 3 pieces announced and believe it or not all 4 are great!







http://www.rogersplace.com/three-public-art-concepts-for-rogers-place-unveiled/

This is in addition to the primary piece by Alex Janvier.



edmontonsun

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

I prefer to view stadiums and arenas in the same light as any other cultural performance space. Don't blame sports in that they kick the shit out of other cultural amenities in the dollar values at stake and actually make money for those involved. Arenas, Museums, Art Galleries, concert halls. Should public money go towards galleries that showcase paintings for highly valued art, or should a concert hall that some promoter books for a concert that makes a couple hundred grand in a single night, how many cities have built facilities for farmers markets that allow vendors to make money...etc

Those other facilities are not a billionaire's vanity project in which he receives all or nearly all the profits on a mostly taxpayer subsidized building. The rich getting richer. Does that make for a better society? In contrast, a new art gallery or museum is not some nefarious scheme by a billionaire to become wealthier. The majority of the people who work at these institutions, while well paid, are hardly what you would call wealthy. It helps that these facilities are affordable and educational to the entire family unlike all the events that will take place at an NHL arena.

[Berklon]

It's been proven time and time again through many studies that a stadium/arena's impact on the local economy is close to zero. Taxpayers are basically footing the bill for a millionaire/billionaire's hobby - a hobby which makes them even more money.

The reason an arena/stadium is part of a development plan (ie. office buildings, etc) is to dupe the taxpayers into thinking the development wouldn't have happened without the arena/stadium - which is wrong and ridiculous. There's no reason to think that whole development in Edmonton wouldn't have happened without the arena.

I agree that IF you're going to build an arena/stadium anyway - maximize it's impact as much as possible by placing it in an optimal location (ie. downtown, close to transit lines, etc)... but don't think for a second that the new building will have any significant impact on the local economy.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Of course it applies to Edmonton. To say otherwise is naive.

Katz is receiving a low interest loan from the city for his pet project. I don't believe he will ever pay taxes. He is also leasing tonnes of parking in and around the arena district - parking built with taxpayer money most of which was $5 each evening or in some cases free - so people that want to come downtown during an Oilers game but don't want to necessarily attend the game itself, $25 or more for the pleasure of parking outside. Those are just a few of the perks he is receiving.

I may be naive, or optimistic, but better than ignorant of facts.

History and facts
http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/projects_redevelopment/downtown-arena.aspx

Agreement details
http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/projects_redevelopment/the-agreement.aspx

Anything south of 104 Avenue is a private development.

Perfect, no, but in this market with what we are seeing in return and for a return, yes please.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Or they could just park on the street...

As I stated Katz is leasing most if not all the parking spots he doesn't own around the downtown. Those parking spaces will be pricey. That is all but assured. If it happens to be a spot on the street that is not leased to Katz, you actually think rates will remain cheap on Oiler game nights or concerts at the new arena?

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

In Montreal's case, the arena was funded privately wasn't it? If so, it's not nearly as much of a economic drain to the city as Edmonton's nearly 100% subsidized arena. I'm sure most of those supposed arena-infused projects , like the office buildings and condos would have happened, and in all probability near or in downtown irregardless of the new arena being built. Like some corporation really cares about being next to an arena!

There will be some new restaurants and bars which could help the arena district but won't make any positive impact to Edmonton as a whole. Heck, it's debatable if the entire downtown will benefit as much as they claim in those ridiculous ads. People who want to attend a show at the Winspear, Citadel, art gallery or go the library downtown and have become accustomed to free or cheap parking just might forego the pleasure of paying $25 to park outside in one of Katz's many sub-leased and city subsidized parking spaces.

1. refer to my post above so you can understand the facts.

2. Some, likely yes, some no, but at this pace absolutely not.

3. I sit on a few boards with senior Stantec folk and the arena absolutely impacted their decision and commitment to the momentum and direction of the core. You are 100% incorrect.

4. Some 2,000,000+ people a year will be brought downtown because of the arena and district, maybe a wee bit of a positive impact, maybe a few hundred who choose to buy a condo, use LRT, shop, drink, eat, meander.

5. Other than meters, people do have to pay to park in parkades at night and the reality is that we are growing up and becoming a larger city, this occurs and so it is. If anything it might bring more amenities and places for those people to eat, drink, shop etc. which is something they may enjoy more.

But believe what you wish.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

As I stated Katz is leasing most if not all the parking spots he doesn't own around the downtown. Those parking spaces will be pricey. That is all but assured. If it happens to be a spot on the street that is not leased to Katz, you actually think rates will remain cheap on Oiler game nights or concerts at the new arena?

The City is going to electronic meters which will use supply and demand to adjust rates yes, but parking can only be so much and there is something called the LRT if you prefer... or for many of us already downtown, walk on over.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

1. refer to my post above so you can understand the facts.

2. Some, likely yes, some no, but at this pace absolutely not.

3. I sit on a few boards with senior Stantec folk and the arena absolutely impacted their decision and commitment to the momentum and direction of the core. You are 100% incorrect.
4. Some 2,000,000+ people a year will be brought downtown because of the arena and district, maybe a wee bit of a positive impact, maybe a few hundred who choose to buy a condo, use LRT, shop, drink, eat, meander.

5. Other than meters, people do have to pay to park in parkades at night and the reality is that we are growing up and becoming a larger city, this occurs and so it is. If anything it might bring more amenities and places for those people to eat, drink, shop etc. which is something they may enjoy more.

But believe what you wish.

It looks like Stantec is building a beautiful building downtown. I wonder, is the city paying for their building also or is it just Katz that gets the free subsidy? Stantec is bringing a lot of employees downtown which should really help boost the local economy. There will be hundreds of construction jobs plus over 1,700 long term, highly paid employees. Don't they deserve a free building as much as Katz does? Without Stantec, would there even be an ICE District? I would even say that since they are providing real, quality, long-term employment, that their business deserves a free building much more than Katz's business (which only really provides cheap, part-time employees). Personally the city should make Katz pay for his building and give a free building to Stantec. They would come out better in the end. What a shame; if only Stantec was in the people entertainment business.

[Jaws]

[QUOTE=Welkin;7095419]It looks like Stantec is building a beautiful building downtown. I wonder, is the city paying for their building also or is it just Katz that gets the free subsidy? Stantec is bringing a lot of employees downtown which should really help boost the local economy. There will be hundreds of construction jobs plus over 1,700 long term, highly paid employees. Don't they deserve a free building as much as Katz does? Without Stantec, would there even be an ICE District? I would even say that since they are providing real, quality, long-term employment, that their business deserves a free building much more than Katz's business (which only really provides cheap, part-time employees). Personally the city should make Katz pay for his building and give a free building to Stantec. They would come out better in the end. What a shame; if only Stantec was in the people entertainment business

Katz isn't getting a free building so your arguement is disingenuous and simplistic at best. The reality is that plenty of businesses/industries get subsidiesof one form of another, and the Oilers/Katz are no different. The automotive, aerospace, oil, fisheries, TV/film production, horse racing, the arts.....all receive public subsidies of one form or another.

[osmo]

So the Arena influenced Stantec more-so then getting CRL carrots and goodies in tax holds to build on site?

So what will Edmonton do if revenues from the TIF/CRL don't swell up to cover debt servicing as projected?

All the current development in Edmonton has be going on fine with the Oilers playing at Northlands.

This story isn't new. How many American cities attempted to parade the same schemes to citizens to provide rich men welfare to build new stadiums. If I can recall no arena/stadium related TIF in America has ever made any money. Why is Edmonton different?