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  #8021  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2015, 10:38 PM
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Are there any renderings of the previous proposal?
Ah, I found this:

http://www.steiner.com/Projects/CoopersCrossing/Renderings.aspx
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  #8022  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2015, 11:12 PM
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This is EXCELLENT news for the future of West Market, and also for the City of Philadelphia as Basciano's empire falls!

Now, let's hope that the surface lot bounded by 22nd, 23rd, Market, and JFK gets snatched up by Brandywine or Liberty!
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  #8023  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2015, 11:16 PM
joemustardo joemustardo is offline
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Originally Posted by Philly-Drew View Post
I looked into this and the development is being done by the same developer who did Easton Town Center outside Columbus, OH. And I tell you, Easton is very impressive from the size to the architecture and quality of materials. I think Steiner isn't going to drop the ball on this one.
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  #8024  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 12:03 AM
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This might be true if the park was be designed to fit in with whatever Liberty is building and compliment the Mutter Museum. None of that true though. This ugly mess of a "park" is being built as though it's the only thing in the world with zero context of what is around and whatever Liberty ends up building. This thing is just too ugly for words.



I mean look at this insane piece of 🞵🞵🞵🞵! This rendering also shows that you're wrong to call this park a greenspace... or even a park really. This thing is going to be basically an extension of the sidewalk with three giant glowing tombstones growing out of it. At this point this park is nearly a bigger tragedy than the actual building collapse.
Wow, that is REALLY bad. I hadn't seen this rendering (just the close up views of the "tombstones"). It's a return to the 70s. Brutalist design. The whole idea is morbid. When a brick facade fell on a judge's head (killing him) on South Broad years ago, he didn't even get a plaque. A park that's a memorial would be better than a memorial masquerading as a park.
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  #8025  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 1:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller View Post
Wow, that is REALLY bad. I hadn't seen this rendering (just the close up views of the "tombstones"). It's a return to the 70s. Brutalist design. The whole idea is morbid. When a brick facade fell on a judge's head (killing him) on South Broad years ago, he didn't even get a plaque. A park that's a memorial would be better than a memorial masquerading as a park.
The One Meridian memorial at the Ritz makes sense. Three bronze plaques between the two buildings. This is just weirdly macabre...in, like, a dystopic kind of way. It looks like a memorial on Battlestar Galactica.

It's really hard to criticize a memorial without sounding sympathetic, but I don't get why every tragedy needs to be memorialized with this level of visibility. If we memorialized every tragedy in Philadelphia we wouldn't be able to turn a corner without being sad. Like you said, a park that's a memorial would be better than this. There's nothing about this that makes it a park. I don't even see a bench.
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  #8026  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 2:44 AM
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The One Meridian memorial at the Ritz makes sense. Three bronze plaques between the two buildings. This is just weirdly macabre...in, like, a dystopic kind of way. It looks like a memorial on Battlestar Galactica.

It's really hard to criticize a memorial without sounding sympathetic, but I don't get why every tragedy needs to be memorialized with this level of visibility. If we memorialized every tragedy in Philadelphia we wouldn't be able to turn a corner without being sad. Like you said, a park that's a memorial would be better than this. There's nothing about this that makes it a park. I don't even see a bench.
...and the One Meridian site memorializes fire fighters killed in the line of duty. That makes eminent sense. As bad as this building collapse was on so many levels, these folks were accident victims (resulting from the negligence of workers and government). Why do they merit more attention that that poor little girl killed by the Rita's security grate on Girard Ave. (which involved similar negligence)? It's really sentimentality without substance -- but I stop here before launching into a diatribe about the present state of our culture. However, I will note that L&I is busy running around closing beer gardens. I feel much safer.

Last edited by Knight Hospitaller; Jul 12, 2015 at 4:08 AM.
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  #8027  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 3:21 AM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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...and the One Meridian site memorializes fire fighters killed in the line of duty. That makes eminent sense. As bad as this building collapse was on so many levels, these folks were accident victims (resulting from the negligence of workers and government). Why do they merit more attention that that poor little girl killed by the Rita's security grate on Girard Ave. (which involved similar negligence)? It's really sentimentality without substance -- but I stop here before launching into a diatribe about the present state of our culture. However, I will note that L&I is busy running around closing beer gardens. I fell much safer.
Plus I actually see people sitting and eating lunch in that one Meridian Plaza every day. It's sort of a weird space in between the residences garage entrance and the back of the ritz carlton where nothing really would have made sense to build there anyway. The space is inviting to sit in, looks relatively nice to look at, and the simple fire helmets make a fitting memorial. Making a memorial space really isn't that hard.

When this memorial park was first announced, so many here instantly were against it and upset. I'm not gonna act like I was happy, I too thought it was a pretty dumb idea, but I was taking the wait and see approach. If done right, this could have been fine. Perhaps even a neighborhood asset.

But this is just so so so bad. The word I keep coming back to is "insane." It really does look like it was designed by a totally insane person. In what reality does something like this feel appropriate to put on the corner of a prominent city street corner. It's just such an odd mix of the extremely morbid giant gravestone looking things, and then the bizarre neon lights, then they just throw in the ridiculous giant lettering that says June 5th. It looks totally absurd.

And that's not even getting into how much it fails as a park. There is no feeling of escaping the sidewalk, nothing to draw you in, no benches to sit on, no grass to sit on, and the incredibly stupid decision to build a giant stone wall behind it, blocking off any interaction with whatever will be built there.

Creating a successful memorial park is not rocket science. It starts with creating a good park. Then you can have a big sign calling it the June 5th Park and beneath you place a nice plaque. Interested people can go read that plaque, read about the tragedy that once occurred there and then read the names of the poor people who lost their lives there. I've seen so many parks of this nature. But you put the park first and the memorial aspect is for those who wish to seek it out.

Philly has been on such a roll lately in this arena, there are so many great small parks in this city now, this dumb park draws on none of that success. And it's no wonder why, they never even set out to make a park. No one involved in this process was ever thinking about the public or the common good of this city. This is nothing but a memorial, a poorly conceived, tasteless memorial that is calling itself a park to act as it will offer anything of value to anyone. And I'm sorry, this memorial is just totally out of scale with what this tragedy deserves. I'm not diminishing the lives lost in anyway and I'm not trying to be crass, but accidents happen and people die every single day. This was not a tragedy of epic proportions. These people deserved a plaque to remind people of what happened there, but the idea that they deserve a bigger and more grandiose memorial than all the firefighters and cops that have lost their lives in this city is offensive. I mean honestly, the size and scope of this memorial basically puts it on par with the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Washington Square Park and that memorial is for THOUSANDS of people who are literally BURIED in the park where the memorial stands. And again not to be crass, but the people memorialized in Washington Square died fighting for creation of this country and all of freedoms... these people died buying second clothes. I'm not saying that to diminish their lives, but normally public memorials are for people who served the public in some way or at least interacted with the public, not for some random people who die in accident.

This rant is super long now, but I just hate this park so much. It's so ugly and stupid and once it's built we're going to be stuck with this 🞵🞵🞵🞵 forever. Ugh. I'm hoping against hope that someone with a brain intervenes and prevents a second tragedy at this location.
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  #8028  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 5:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller View Post
...and the One Meridian site memorializes fire fighters killed in the line of duty. That makes eminent sense. As bad as this building collapse was on so many levels, these folks were accident victims (resulting from the negligence of workers and government). Why do they merit more attention that that poor little girl killed by the Rita's security grate on Girard Ave. (which involved similar negligence)? It's really sentimentality without substance -- but I stop here before launching into a diatribe about the present state of our culture. However, I will note that L&I is busy running around closing beer gardens. I fell much safer.
Perfectly stated. Sentimentality without substance . . . the flipside of cynicism and hypocrisy. That's what this is all about. It's sickening.
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  #8029  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 12:07 PM
GarCastle GarCastle is offline
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I think I have a photo of a truck boring into that parking lot from a few weeks back. I've been lazy posting photos (because I can never remember which zero hassle site to use for the photo uploads LOL). The parking lot was still just about full but a truck was in the middle'ish with a boring drill.

Cheers,
G.
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  #8030  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 12:11 PM
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They bought all of the properties between the memorial site and the firehouse.
Brandywine is probably thinking that with all the recent development in the area, that are would be a PRIME spot for a nice surface parking lot with an inexpensive aluminum chain-link fence around it, especially since Brook is not carrying through with the SUV obstacle course parking lot after all.

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G.
(yes I am jesting!)
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  #8031  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 12:36 PM
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[QUOTE=allovertown;7091686

Philly has been on such a roll lately in this arena, there are so many great small parks in this city now, this dumb park draws on none of that success. And it's no wonder why, they never even set out to make a park. No one involved in this process was ever thinking about the public or the common good of this city. This is nothing but a memorial, a poorly conceived, tasteless memorial that is calling itself a park to act as it will offer anything of value to anyone. And I'm sorry, this memorial is just totally out of scale with what this tragedy deserves. I'm not diminishing the lives lost in anyway and I'm not trying to be crass, but accidents happen and people die every single day. This was not a tragedy of epic proportions. These people deserved a plaque to remind people of what happened there, but the idea that they deserve a bigger and more grandiose memorial than all the firefighters and cops that have lost their lives in this city is offensive. I mean honestly, the size and scope of this memorial basically puts it on par with the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Washington Square Park and that memorial is for THOUSANDS of people who are literally BURIED in the park where the memorial stands. And again not to be crass, but the people memorialized in Washington Square died fighting for creation of this country and all of freedoms... these people died buying second clothes. I'm not saying that to diminish their lives, but normally public memorials are for people who served the public in some way or at least interacted with the public, not for some random people who die in accident.



Thanks for this post .
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  #8032  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 1:17 PM
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PMC Property Group, one of the city's biggest residential landlords, and the real estate investment firm Lubert-Adler have paid $3.25 million for a three-story building on Market Street beside the Marketplace Design Center, which they also own.

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20...e_Design_Center.html#zVHA6lZrz0ctQp70.99

So this news comes out immediately after Brandywine's transaction announcement - looks like Brandywine and PMC are trying to one up each other. Competition.
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  #8033  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 1:51 PM
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Its almodt like brandywine and pmc are playing a monopoly game, maybe if they pass city hall they will collect 500 or whatever.
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  #8034  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2015, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller View Post
...and the One Meridian site memorializes fire fighters killed in the line of duty. That makes eminent sense. As bad as this building collapse was on so many levels, these folks were accident victims (resulting from the negligence of workers and government). Why do they merit more attention that that poor little girl killed by the Rita's security grate on Girard Ave. (which involved similar negligence)? It's really sentimentality without substance -- but I stop here before launching into a diatribe about the present state of our culture. However, I will note that L&I is busy running around closing beer gardens. I fell much safer.
I couldn't agree more, both about the Meridian site's merits and any unspoken diatribe about the present culture. Indulging in our sensitivities by disjointedly memorializing tragic accidents with haphazard qualifiers is counter-productive. It ends up dulling our sensitivities and memorials - and their tragic backstories - become white noise. A plaque, a bench, even a tree is sufficient for this kind of event. Subtlety encourages people to stop, read, and reflect on what happened if they choose to do so. Banging them over the head with postmodern tombstones and oversized text makes those passing by cynically wonder why so much attention was payed to a an isolated accident.
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  #8035  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2015, 4:22 AM
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I couldn't agree more, both about the Meridian site's merits and any unspoken diatribe about the present culture. Indulging in our sensitivities by disjointedly memorializing tragic accidents with haphazard qualifiers is counter-productive. It ends up dulling our sensitivities and memorials - and their tragic backstories - become white noise. A plaque, a bench, even a tree is sufficient for this kind of event. Subtlety encourages people to stop, read, and reflect on what happened if they choose to do so. Banging them over the head with postmodern tombstones and oversized text makes those passing by cynically wonder why so much attention was payed to a an isolated accident.
Well said. The best memorial to these victims (and the girl at Rita's) would be to actually fix L&I. That's substance. If build something they must, make it something of beauty. There's no substance in ugliness, either. This design literally sets the violence of June 5 in stone. It stops the narrative at Good Friday, where the beauty of a park would've spoken of Easter. There's nothing inspiring or consoling in a neon-lit tomb.

Last edited by Knight Hospitaller; Jul 12, 2015 at 4:37 AM.
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  #8036  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2015, 4:30 AM
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[...] but I was taking the wait and see approach. If done right, this could have been fine. Perhaps even a neighborhood asset.

[....]

This rant is super long now, but I just hate this park so much. It's so ugly and stupid and once it's built we're going to be stuck with this 🞵🞵🞵🞵 forever. Ugh. I'm hoping against hope that someone with a brain intervenes and prevents a second tragedy at this location.
I started by doing as you did, cutting the whole idea some slack. I should've informed myself better, because I didn't have to wait long to see the full set of the awful renderings you so helpfully supplied. I'm a convert to thinking of this as insane, macabre, brutalist, cynical, sentimental mush not worthy of the victims or the city.
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  #8037  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2015, 12:59 PM
GarCastle GarCastle is offline
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PMC Property Group, one of the city's biggest residential landlords, and the real estate investment firm Lubert-Adler have paid $3.25 million for a three-story building on Market Street beside the Marketplace Design Center, which they also own.

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20...e_Design_Center.html#zVHA6lZrz0ctQp70.99

So this news comes out immediately after Brandywine's transaction announcement - looks like Brandywine and PMC are trying to one up each other. Competition.
Good find. Though that Luff guy is talking out his 🞵🞵🞵 about having food/retail for people in the Marketplace LOL. Did they draw that guy out of a hat to get a quote from? My wife is a residential interior designer and the Marketplace is the only place for interior design anywhere near us. The closest is then the "D&D" in Manhattan off Lex. There is probably a design center in DC also. So PMC buying the building could mean a few things: future development on the river, just an investment, blocking someone else from getting it, etc. But when the comparatively tiny plot next door is bought, that sets a different tone I would think. Makes it seem much more like a tear down and rebuild. While that would be quite awesome from a development perspective it would obliterate the interior design for the city, Main Line, and anywhere near. These companies only have 1 showroom in any large geographic area at which designers can see and take back to work samples of things.

Seems like there is tons of other spaces in CC they could move to, but getting a large contiguous space and getting all those groups to move together again might be like herding 3-legged cats LOL.

Who knows maybe they will sit on the space and flip it to a big consumer who is border blocked at this point (CHOP, Penn, etc.). While the building of things is definitely fun to watch, this jockeying of building/property ownership is starting to get interesting too.

Cheers,
G.
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  #8038  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2015, 1:45 PM
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One thing is for sure - the development of the Schuylkill Banks has made the area red hot. The overall cost for the park and the boardwalk was pretty small. Talk about a great investment!

If I recall from those LSNA notes that Summers sends around, there are talks for the big lot on 23rd and Race/Cherry. Hopefully the momentum continues.

And hopefully the city continues to make small incremental investments for the other river that will lead to more development there.
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  #8039  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2015, 1:46 PM
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Did anyone else read this:

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/The_long_ride_home.html

As far as I'm concerned these issues are going to continue to drive companies back to the city, or at least to suburban office areas that have great tranist access. There are more costs to consider than taxes when businesses figure out where to locate. City is at disadvantage when it comes to taxes (although less than it used to be) but everything comes with a cost. People are NOT happy about not having any choice but to drive to work. I think most people would take the job that is located near a transit node over one that can only be reached by car if all other things remain equal. This entire region has done a terrible job with planning over the last 30-40 years. An area with such a well developed transit network shouldve been smarter- unlike sunbelt cities we already had extensive transit infrastructure.
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  #8040  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2015, 2:26 PM
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Did anyone else read this:

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/The_long_ride_home.html

As far as I'm concerned these issues are going to continue to drive companies back to the city, or at least to suburban office areas that have great tranist access. There are more costs to consider than taxes when businesses figure out where to locate. City is at disadvantage when it comes to taxes (although less than it used to be) but everything comes with a cost. People are NOT happy about not having any choice but to drive to work. I think most people would take the job that is located near a transit node over one that can only be reached by car if all other things remain equal. This entire region has done a terrible job with planning over the last 30-40 years. An area with such a well developed transit network shouldve been smarter- unlike sunbelt cities we already had extensive transit infrastructure.
I'm glad that we have a state transportation chief that realizes that expanding the Schuylkill or the Blue Route is not the correct solution to the problem. We need to focus on maintaining the infrastructure we have and expanding transit access while making smart zoning decisions in both the city and the burbs.
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