SkyCity Centre Winnipeg | 45F | 575 Ft | 175.26 M | Cancelled

[Pegoise]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

So if the plan is for everybody to buy units in SkyCity for rent and they start in the 200's (or 190's), then you're talking about having to achieve like $2.75-$3/psf rents in Downtown Winnipeg to hurdle the build cost and give purchasers a positive carry on their investment. Does anybody believe that's possible in Downtown Winnipeg? Nobody's ever done it.

I think the odd condo is doing it along Waterfront but keep in mind Crystal is about to dump 200+ units of high end rental at a riverfront location along Assiniboine ... this will not end well...

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by Pegoise

I think the odd condo is doing it along Waterfront but keep in mind Crystal is about to dump 200+ units of high end rental at a riverfront location along Assiniboine ... this will not end well...

It will be very interesting to see what the rents are and what the take-up will be in that building. The closer you get to the building the nicer it looks I find. And the area is fantastic.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

It will be very interesting to see what the rents are and what the take-up will be in that building. The closer you get to the building the nicer it looks I find. And the area is fantastic.

$1400 for a beautiful new 2-bedroom.

Run scared. Rube Spletzer is building this thing because the alternative was giving the money to the government. It'll almost absolutely operate at a loss and he's so wealthy there would still be banks lining up to finance the project. Not that his heirs won't already be incredibly wealthy, but this is an investment in them. He'll never see a dime of return form this building so long as he lives. Joe Sixpack doesn't want to own a condo down the street and compete with Rube Spletzer for tenants. Especially not when one's building is on a quiet street on the river and the other's is two blocks from Portage Place.

[1ajs]

thats why u hire marketers

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

$1400 for a beautiful new 2-bedroom.

Run scared. Rube Spletzer is building this thing because the alternative was giving the money to the government. It'll almost absolutely operate at a loss and he's so wealthy there would still be banks lining up to finance the project. Not that his heirs won't already be incredibly wealthy, but this is an investment in them. He'll never see a dime of return form this building so long as he lives. Joe Sixpack doesn't want to own a condo down the street and compete with Rube Spletzer for tenants. Especially not when one's building is on a quiet street on the river and the other's is two blocks from Portage Place.

That sounds pretty reasonable to me. If I wasn't settled here that is a place I would definitely consider living in. No hassles, no condo boards, five minutes from the Forks..

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

thats why u hire marketers

Marketers aren't wizards. If they were, they'd be working their magic getting the rest of Glasshouse sold first.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

That sounds pretty reasonable to me. If I wasn't settled here that is a place I would definitely consider living in. No hassles, no condo boards, five minutes from the Forks..

Assiniboine is a really nice street. If somebody could ever successfully have that awful Manitoba Housing building decommissioned, the area would be fantastic. That building single-handedly makes the area orders of magnitude worse than it should be.

But I'd agree with you. No clueless condo boards redecorating the foyer instead of fixing the window seals, no property taxes, and no maintenance. But best of all, you can downsize as your needs change by giving notice to the management company. No land transfer tax, no realtor commissions, no waiting 8 months to get a low-ball offer. And if you decide downtown living really isn't your thing, just don't re-sign your lease!

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Assiniboine is a really nice street. If somebody could ever successfully have that awful Manitoba Housing building decommissioned, the area would be fantastic. That building single-handedly makes the area orders of magnitude worse than it should be.

But I'd agree with you. No clueless condo boards redecorating the foyer instead of fixing the window seals, no property taxes, and no maintenance. But best of all, you can downsize as your needs change by giving notice to the management company. No land transfer tax, no realtor commissions, no waiting 8 months to get a low-ball offer. And if you decide downtown living really isn't your thing, just don't re-sign your lease!

Manitoba Housing will be undertaking a major renovation of that building shortly so I would imagine that getting rid of it wont be happening any time soon.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Biff

Manitoba Housing will be undertaking a major renovation of that building shortly so I would imagine that getting rid of it wont be happening any time soon.

That's unfortunate. The area has endless potential without that building.

The city is going to have a big problem trying to gentrify some of the more core areas of the city unless the Province can agree to canning some of these complexes. They are just magnets for the insidious things that make neighbourhoods uncomfortable. Mayfair and the East end of River Ave. are other good examples of this.

[1ajs]

the city should start inforcing its bylaws on mb housing.........

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

That's unfortunate. The area has endless potential without that building.

The city is going to have a big problem trying to gentrify some of the more core areas of the city unless the Province can agree to canning some of these complexes. They are just magnets for the insidious things that make neighbourhoods uncomfortable. Mayfair and the East end of River Ave. are other good examples of this.

There seems to be pretty strong demand for public housing, though... the units lost would have to be replaced, and where would you put those? It's a bit of a shell game.

I used to live fairly close to the MH complex on Assiniboine and although it presented some challenges it's not like it was a crime-ridden crack house either. If anything it's probably good to have those scattered throughout the city as they are in such a way that the residents are within a decent, functional neighbourhood instead of creating huge ghettos by cramming loads of MH units into small parts of the city.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

That's unfortunate. The area has endless potential without that building.

The city is going to have a big problem trying to gentrify some of the more core areas of the city unless the Province can agree to canning some of these complexes. They are just magnets for the insidious things that make neighbourhoods uncomfortable. Mayfair and the East end of River Ave. are other good examples of this.

All those units on Mayfair are being torn down in the next year. I'm not sure yet if there will continue to be Manitoba Housing there or not.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

There seems to be pretty strong demand for public housing, though... the units lost would have to be replaced, and where would you put those? It's a bit of a shell game.

I used to live fairly close to the MH complex on Assiniboine and although it presented some challenges it's not like it was a crime-ridden crack house either. If anything it's probably good to have those scattered throughout the city as they are in such a way that the residents are within a decent, functional neighbourhood instead of creating huge ghettos by cramming loads of MH units into small parts of the city.

I'm not going to tackle the social aspect of Manitoba Housing because I'm not a social worker. I can't with any credibility make the case one way or another as to whether forcibly putting the underclass into middle class neighbourhoods increases their chances for success in life except to say that proximity to a different set of values does not mean you can or will adopt them.

But something like a large Manitoba Housing complex radiates throughout a community. At a time, I also lived close to this particular one so I can speak with some authority on it. And you're right; it wasn't a derelict crack house. But it was a near constant problem. There was a police presence there a couple times every week. The front yard was generally filled with "undesirables" at any given time. And at night, it was constant screaming and yelling with the near interminable comings and goings of the down and outs who trundled back and forth between the park, the river, and the building at all hours of the night. And I would see it often given I had close friends who lived in 33 Hargrave.

I'm more bemoaning the fact that Manitoba Housing ends up becoming a lot of the reason the neighbourhood stalls at a point. And you and I are good examples of this. We lived in these neighbourhoods, but we didn't put down roots. We took our investments elsewhere. And this happens all the time.

The effects are insidious, but they're there.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by esquire

There seems to be pretty strong demand for public housing, though... the units lost would have to be replaced, and where would you put those?

Whyte Ridge?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

I'm more bemoaning the fact that Manitoba Housing ends up becoming a lot of the reason the neighbourhood stalls at a point. And you and I are good examples of this. We lived in these neighbourhoods, but we didn't put down roots. We took our investments elsewhere. And this happens all the time.

The effects are insidious, but they're there.

I didn't leave because of Manitoba Housing, though... it didn't really matter to me what was in that building. Like many who grow up, get married and start families, I left because I wanted more room than I had in a small condo. The neighbourhood itself was fine for my purposes... my current home is not that far away from other MH complexes.

I guess it's a highly subjective assessment, but while the MH complex on Assiniboine would on occasion make its presence known, I never got the sense that it was somehow a drag on the entire neighbourhood.

Originally Posted by armorand93

Whyte Ridge?

Don't laugh. There are MH complexes scattered throughout many middle/upper class neighbourhoods in Winnipeg. If you ask me, this is as it should be... because what's the alternative, stuffing everyone who makes less than $25K into the North End? It's nice that kids who live in MH complexes have access to stable neighbourhoods, decent schools, the ability to avoid gangs and crime, good recreational opportunities, that sort of thing.

I wouldn't mind seeing more of these sorts of developments. Why shouldn't there be public housing in Sage Creek, for example? Of course, there does get to be a point where the suburbs are so far removed from the centre of the city where it can be a challenge for those without cars to get around easily to get to work, buy groceries, etc. So that factor provides a bit of a limit, but in general I don't see any reason why neighbourhoods shouldn't be socioeconomically mixed. I'd personally hate to see the kind of stratification you see in most US cities, although it does seem that we are moving in that general direction.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

I didn't leave because of Manitoba Housing, though... it didn't really matter to me what was in that building. Like many who grow up, get married and start families, I left because I wanted more room than I had in a small condo. The neighbourhood itself was fine for my purposes... my current home is not that far away from other MH complexes.

I guess it's a highly subjective assessment, but while the MH complex on Assiniboine would on occasion make its presence known, I never got the sense that it was somehow a drag on the entire neighbourhood.



Don't laugh. There are MH complexes scattered throughout many middle/upper class neighbourhoods in Winnipeg. If you ask me, this is as it should be... because what's the alternative, stuffing everyone who makes less than $25K into the North End? It's nice that kids who live in MH complexes have access to stable neighbourhoods, decent schools, the ability to avoid gangs and crime, good recreational opportunities, that sort of thing.

I wouldn't mind seeing more of these sorts of developments. Why shouldn't there be public housing in Sage Creek, for example? Of course, there does get to be a point where the suburbs are so far removed from the centre of the city where it can be a challenge for those without cars to get around easily to get to work, buy groceries, etc. So that factor provides a bit of a limit, but in general I don't see any reason why neighbourhoods shouldn't be socioeconomically mixed. I'd personally hate to see the kind of stratification you see in most US cities, although it does seem that we are moving in that general direction.

The truth is that Manitoba Housing has a budget. They can't compete with those who are going to purchase land at fair market value, so they don't. And they shouldn't, really. Manitoba Housing's mandate is not a qualitative one, it's a quantitative one. And you most effectively fulfill that mandate by being efficient rather than trying to socially engineer towards a lucky few.

The thing that's most overlooked by those who advocate for socioeconomically diverse neighbourhoods is that opportunity is still a function of household wealth for the most part. And that goes equally for the middle class. If you're a middle class family eeking it out in an upper middle class neighbourhood, you're still not really part of the neighbourhood. You can't afford to wear the same clothes or go on the same trips or even play on the same sports teams. You don't drive the same cars or have the same technologies and so on and so on. This is more isolating and detrimental than having people of the same class around you. And the same goes for the impoverished parachuted into the middle class neighbourhoods. Proximity does not create equality - if often breeds resentment from both sides of the fence. Putting the impoverished around the middle or upper middle class in the hopes that something rubs off will only practically have the effect of magnifying and exacerbating the differences.

And not to the same degree obviously, but there is plenty of evidence from the failed forced busing experiments of yesteryear that the integration of disparate parties is mostly just well-intentioned theory that doesn't hold up in practice.

[The Unknown Poster]

I dated a girl who lived in Manitoba Housing in the South End. It was awful and she was desperate to get out. She worked hard and got out of there. That's really the difference in what sort of experience you're going to have - people that want to better themselves and get out and those who are happy to be there. And there were quite a few people who didnt need to be there either...and were.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

There seems to be pretty strong demand for public housing, though... the units lost would have to be replaced, and where would you put those? It's a bit of a shell game.

Waverly West (Bridgewater, Southpointe, etc) could really benefit from the diversification in its population base.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Waverly West (Bridgewater, Southpointe, etc) could really benefit from the diversification in its population base.

In all seriousness: why not?

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

In all seriousness: why not?

I think people need to be a little less idealistic about this. At the minimum, Manitoba Housing does an awful job of maintaining their properties, vetting tenants, and keeping an eye on who is living in the unit at the moment. Leaving aside the tenancy for the moment, the properties themselves become complete eye-sores that negatively impact the properties that surround them.