YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Large Cat]

Originally Posted by Waders

Sign
The traffic jam that caused flight delays.

Source: CTV News

Lol If it's like that tomorrow I'll be biking past it with glee.

[st7860]

Templeton station will finally be used Heavily too

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Not the greatest source for this, but I haven't noticed it being mentioned that Emirates is bumping Seattle to twice daily. Quite a nod for Seattle.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/07/e...vice-to-dubai/

Originally Posted by urbancanadian

I've actually been hearing radio ads from Emirates lately, advertising the route. They mentioned twice-daily flights to Dubai "and beyond". Thought it was interesting.

Can anyone in marketing or engineering or passenger sales tell me the likely scenario for YVR IF one of the M3 (Qatar or Emirates, Etihad) was given Vancouver landing rights.
I hear so much naysaying about it. What would happen? Current European flights cannibalized? India snarled up? (we've ben waiting on that one for a long time, and it's quicker to go over the Pacific, anyway).
What effect, if extrapolating the situation outward by ten years, for example, would come about? People say we need to keep the M3 out, to do do "what is best" for Canadians.
OK fine. What is best? And what is the REAL snag with the M3?
Thank you for your time and understanding with this question.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Can anyone in marketing or engineering or passenger sales tell me the likely scenario for YVR IF one of the M3 (Qatar or Emirates, Etihad) was given Vancouver landing rights.
I hear so much naysaying about it. What would happen? Current European flights cannibalized? India snarled up? (we've ben waiting on that one for a long time, and it's quicker to go over the Pacific, anyway).
What effect, if extrapolating the situation outward by ten years, for example, would come about? People say we need to keep the M3 out, to do do "what is best" for Canadians.
OK fine. What is best? And what is the REAL snag with the M3?
Thank you for your time and understanding with this question.

The snag with the ME3 is prefer to operate to destinations with full Open Skies include at least 5 or freedom rights. Once ME3 gets unrestricted rights, they exploit to full potential by bringing in large aircraft and using beyond traffic rights that are available.

To further distill the first question, one must not ask about YVR access rights but rather access rights to Canada by the ME3. Because the ME3 will not accept anything less than full openskies, we must assume the government has granted them unrestricted access to Canada, although its also safe to assume the ME3 do not have access to 5th freedom rights to or out of Canada (EK can do YYZ-DXB daily, but not YYZ-LHR-DXB with ability to take pax YYZ-LHR).

The first thing ME3 would do is operate out of YYZ on daily or greater than daily basis. This would seriously impact YVR connection traffic to Asia to the point that some YVR-Asia services might cease to operate.

Second thing EK would do is operate daily or double daily services YVR-DXB with the A380. SEA cannot handle the A380, which is the only reason EK has 2x daily 77W services. YVR would likely pick up traffic from SEA in this scenario.

Third impact is pull down or pull out of services by AF, BA, and LH LH would likely pull out of MUC and give FRA over to AC. AF is gone in favour of all traffic going onto KL through AMS. BA would likely reduce services through smaller aircraft.

Its also entirely possible that WS widebody pulls into town and AC enhances rouge 763 flights to Europe and northern Asia. These operations are least impacted by a major push by the ME3.

Transborder will reduce slightly as the US3 pull down flights that are no longer profitable because the traffic now flows over the ME3. expect DL and AA to pull out of their recent additions to YVR (LAX and SEA).

[WarrenC12]

What a joke. Who's paying for this circus? Flights delayed?!

This is only a taste of what we'll see in Tsawassen.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What a joke. Who's paying for this circus? Flights delayed?!

This is only a taste of what we'll see in Tsawassen.

Definitely a case of being a victim of one's own success. I have a hunch that we won't see any ongoing traffic issues as a result of the Outlet Mall. This was an opening-day display of irrational exuberance, with a lot of people likely thinking that there would be freebie give-aways or opening day specials on the opening day, which are not uncommon for the opening of a new retail development.

As for who is paying for it, do you mean the project itself or the cost of congestion yesterday? McArthurGlen is the developer/operator, so they put up the capital, and it is a joint venture with YVR, who get half the revenue and put in the upfront infrastructure.

One flight was delayed, to the best of my knowledge, which isn't good, but hardly "the airport is shut down!" that was trending on social media.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

One flight was delayed, to the best of my knowledge, which isn't good, but hardly "the airport is shut down!" that was trending on social media.

I meant for the hassle and flight delays. If it was truly 1 flight, no big deal.

I would hope for some better traffic separation if possible. I guess we will see what happens as time goes on.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I meant for the hassle and flight delays. If it was truly 1 flight, no big deal.

I would hope for some better traffic separation if possible. I guess we will see what happens as time goes on.

I'm sure more than a few people had an unwelcome surprise and just barely made their flights, and if this does happen with any regularity, the airport will have to seriously look at roadway improvements, but I think this was a one-day black swan event.

I understand that the airport did have a traffic management plan, and there were signs up saying outlet mall traffic keep right, but there were no police on hand to enforce this, and (I'm being delicate here) it is not terribly surprising that people were ignoring this and trying to jump the queue by trying to merge into the right lane at the last moment.

[Johnny Aussie]

^^^^
Reminds me of what happened when Krispy Kremes first opened in the Seattle area.... Interstates backed up for miles.... Ah yes the crazy consumer... "I have to be the first to see it!"

In other news... I expect Westjet will be announcing its winter scheds fairly soon. The second daily seasonal YVR-PSP flight has just been moved from the morning to early afternoon. Last winter the two flights left within 90 mins of each other.

[Klazu]

Ha, didn't know that there is a Krispy Kreme in Seattle. Not worth driving there though, as there is one much closer to us in Delta. I quite often make my way via Delta to pick up some donuts from there.

People are the same everywhere. Also Los Angeles went bananas when Dunkin' Donuts there. Silly people.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Ha, didn't know that there is a Krispy Kreme in Seattle. Not worth driving there though, as there is one much closer to us in Delta. I quite often make my way via Delta to pick up some donuts from there.

People are the same everywhere. Also Los Angeles went bananas when Dunkin' Donuts there. Silly people.

They've even found their way downunder. When they first opened in Sydney it was not uncommon to have multiple passengers carrying on 2-3 tray boxes and straight into the overhead bins! I don't think I was on a flight ever between SYD and MEL without a few pax carrying boxes until we were so lucky enough to get them in MEL too (smirk). I still don't think I've had even one here.

[tayser]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I'm a bit surprised they are starting the flight in June. Wouldn't that be the slowest time of year for Canada-Australia traffic?

Think in reverse - colder Australia heading to the warmer Northern Hemisphere.

New Zealand is the only country which sees large shifts in capacity through the winter (June-August) and Summer (December-February) months to/from Australia because we're in the same climatic zone (save for a few extra flights going to NZ ski fields in winter, there's always large capacity / seasonal increases between Australia and NZ ports over the summer months -QF, NZ, VA all play the musical chairs game at this time of year).

S.E. Asia where there are masses of flights is hot year round and capacity generally will stay the same save for specific holiday peaks (Christmas/AU summer school holidays (January))

Europe is only reached by stopovers in Asia or Middle East and therefore the capacity/frequency stays the same as those carriers are funnelling passengers from all over their networks, not just AU/NZ, to get to European destinations via the mega hubs of Dubai, Singapore, KL, Bangkok and Hong Kong.

North American flights sometimes see seasonal increases over Christmas/AU summer school holidays but generally capacity stays the same because North American travellers come here in our summer, we go there in your summer.

There's generally a short weather equilibrium between AU and North America/Europe for two weeks in March/April and September/October which perfectly coincide with the shoulder periods where airfrares are cheaper - its the best time to do the long-haul (20 hours) trips.

[tayser]

Originally Posted by Cage

Unfortunately, no the connection process is not easier in BNE compared to SYD.

The problem with Australian connections is the propensity to have separate International and Domestic terminals. In SYD this adds at least 20-30 minutes and a lot of walking bus and walking to the connection.

BNE connections will be less cumbersome simply because the terminals are smaller, but all pax will still have to walk -> Bus -> walk.

Of major Australian airports (SYD, MEL, ADL, PER, BNE, CNS) only MEL and ADL have connected terminals.

Yep and with AC flying to BNE it still doesn't make getting on Air Canada's flights from MEL (with the QF interline that connects you to SYD and will no doubt connect you to BNE when it launches) any more attractive.

The best way to get to Canada by avoiding the US is still with Air New Zealand via Auckland from Melbourne - You do all the outbound passport control/international stuff in Melbourne and fly into and out of the same terminal at Auckland and only have to pass through transit check rather than domestic flight from MEL to SYD/BNE, transfer between their Domestic/International terminals, do outbound passport control then get on Air Canada up to Vancouver.

In saying that, the outbound (MEL-SYD/BNE-international destination) via SYD/BNE (to any connecting flight) is generally "less bad" than the inbound (International destination-SYD/BNE-MEL).

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by tayser

The best way to get to Canada by avoiding the US is still with Air New Zealand via Auckland from Melbourne - You do all the outbound passport control/international stuff in Melbourne and fly into and out of the same terminal at Auckland and only have to pass through transit check rather than domestic flight from MEL to SYD/BNE, transfer between their Domestic/International terminals, do outbound passport control then get on Air Canada up to Vancouver.

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

I used to fly AC a lot but now not very often so the chances of me using this new flight is remote. But at least yet another Star Alliance option from MEL to YVR with a bit of Virgin Australia for the domestic portion. MEL-SYD-YVR is actually 12 miles shorter than MEL-BNE-YVR.... Both require a terminal change though... Why I now prefer NZ via AKL and I find NZ service better than AC now.

Going to give UA another chance in a few weeks If I didn't have to actually go to LA I would still prefer AKL.
Also, I am going to give the new CA MEL-PEK nonstop a go at the end of the year when we go to Canada at XMas... Hoping the MEL-PEK flights move up to a 77W like the PEK-YVR flights. Avoiding the stop in PVG is a good move by Air China.
For my previous domestic legs to/from SYD to pick up AC to/from YVR I always booked VA as a separate ticket. Too bad AC still uses QF for its domestic tags. It cost me a bit more but took it for the privileges I have on VA. This of course meant all my trips to and from YVR would have been statistically recorded as me originating/terminating in SYD.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Cage

The snag with the ME3 is prefer to operate to destinations with full Open Skies include at least 5 or freedom rights. Once ME3 gets unrestricted rights, they exploit to full potential by bringing in large aircraft and using beyond traffic rights that are available.
.................................
Transborder will reduce slightly as the US3 pull down flights that are no longer profitable because the traffic now flows over the ME3. expect DL and AA to pull out of their recent additions to YVR (LAX and SEA).

..............
Thank you again, Cage, for this possible explanatory scenario.
My next question might be: what effect will Emirates presence have on SEA-TAC?
I wonder if this may drag down other international routes out of there, as well. It'll be interesting to watch how it all unfolds.

[YVR Bruce]

I am looking to see how the oil markets might be affecting YYC, for comparison with YVR this year.

I see YYC uses a measure that includes "non-revenue passengers". Not sure what that is. Also it's not clear whether they otherwise follow the ACI-standard measure of transfers counted as one (vs 2 separate arrival and departure counts).

http://www.yyc.com/Portals/0/MEDIA/M...r_paxtotal.pdf

Can anyone chime in with info on this? e.g. is their 15m in 2014 comparable on the same basis to YVR's 19m?

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

They've even found their way downunder. When they first opened in Sydney it was not uncommon to have multiple passengers carrying on 2-3 tray boxes and straight into the overhead bins! I don't think I was on a flight ever between SYD and MEL without a few pax carrying boxes until we were so lucky enough to get them in MEL too (smirk). I still don't think I've had even one here.

krispy kreme is opening in south africa this year

you need to have one now, they are amazing

i wonder how long the madness of the outlet mall will last, the seattle outlet mall is always a nightmare, long backups on the off ramps onto 1-5 and parking is a nightmare - pretty much everytime i have gone on a weekend down there, weekdays less so but still always busy

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by YVR Bruce

I am looking to see how the oil markets might be affecting YYC, for comparison with YVR this year.

I see YYC uses a measure that includes "non-revenue passengers". Not sure what that is. Also it's not clear whether they otherwise follow the ACI-standard measure of transfers counted as one (vs 2 separate arrival and departure counts).

http://www.yyc.com/Portals/0/MEDIA/M...r_paxtotal.pdf

Can anyone chime in with info on this? e.g. is their 15m in 2014 comparable on the same basis to YVR's 19m?

could non-revenue be for private charter flights? a lot of oil companies fly their employees up north on private charter flights, usually they us a smaller terminal as opposed to the main one, they then have to transfer to a commerical flight at the main terminal if they are going on elsewhere

[casper]

Originally Posted by YVR Bruce

I am looking to see how the oil markets might be affecting YYC, for comparison with YVR this year.

I see YYC uses a measure that includes "non-revenue passengers". Not sure what that is. Also it's not clear whether they otherwise follow the ACI-standard measure of transfers counted as one (vs 2 separate arrival and departure counts).

http://www.yyc.com/Portals/0/MEDIA/M...r_paxtotal.pdf

Can anyone chime in with info on this? e.g. is their 15m in 2014 comparable on the same basis to YVR's 19m?

I would expect "non-revenue" to include airline employees. Airlines have deals with each other that permit airline staff to fly on passes where they travel standby and only pay taxes and/or a nominal fee.

Not certain how loyalty program passengers are counted, i.e. traveling on an aeroplan reward ticket. Given the reward program charge all the airport taxes on rewards tickets I would assume as far as the airport is concerned they are revenue passengers.

Passengers out of the FBOs are another possibility.

[casper]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

krispy kreme is opening in south africa this year

you need to have one now, they are amazing

i wonder how long the madness of the outlet mall will last, the seattle outlet mall is always a nightmare, long backups on the off ramps onto 1-5 and parking is a nightmare - pretty much everytime i have gone on a weekend down there, weekdays less so but still always busy

Does not look good for catching the BC Ferries when the one by the terminal opens. Hopefully between the two we start to hit outlet mall saturation and it goes back to normal.

I don't understand why these things need to be built next to major transportation hubs with fairly limited road access.