PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX - Page 398

1487 · #**7941** Posted **Jul 2, 2015, 6:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhillySteaks

It's broken by submarket. Not suburbs or state vs. city, so the main line and conshohocken markets continue to be the cities largest competitors in leasing office space. These two sub markets are doing quite well, and it's not about building new. The strategy in these sub markets currently is buy class B and upgrade it to class A. There is quite significant demand for both trophy and class A in those two sub markets with very little inventory, this is obvious of the extremely low vacancy rates. The rest of the sub markets in the burbs, I don't really care about personally. Right now there are about 10 or so tenants shopping 100k SF of space with only 15 or so blocks of that size available in all of philly and the metro area. If you want exact numbers CBRE has its research posted on their website for free.

You may not have been talking City vs suburbs in general, but that's how many people look at it. The reality is as you described- a couple of sub-markets in the burbs are doing really well- and they happen to be close to highways, RR lines and the city. But they aren't that big in relation to the overall suburban inventory or even compared to CC as a whole. If business taxes were the primary driver for decision making you would see CC doing worse and the lower tax burbs doing better. There has been more in-migration than out migration in recent years. When suburban office buildings are renovated or built now they are looking to poach tenants who are already in the burbs, you dont see them getting any notable tenants out of the city. Sunoco is an exception, but my understanding is that they have shrunk considerably over the years as Sunoco has exited parts of the oil business.

apetrella802 · #**7942** Posted **Jul 2, 2015, 6:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1487

You may not have been talking City vs suburbs in general, but that's how many people look at it. The reality is as you described- a couple of sub-markets in the burbs are doing really well- and they happen to be close to highways, RR lines and the city. But they aren't that big in relation to the overall suburban inventory or even compared to CC as a whole. If business taxes were the primary driver for decision making you would see CC doing worse and the lower tax burbs doing better. There has been more in-migration than out migration in recent years. When suburban office buildings are renovated or built now they are looking to poach tenants who are already in the burbs, you dont see them getting any notable tenants out of the city. Sunoco is an exception, but my understanding is that they have shrunk considerably over the years as Sunoco has exited parts of the oil business.

don't be fooled, the overwhelming reason for low job growth in the city in the for profit arena is taxes, all kinds of taxes!!!

Late1 · #**7943** Posted **Jul 2, 2015, 7:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outta here

Just read late1's post. At the bottom is a foot note labeled pretty pretty pictures . Jason Knight shows
a shot of the CITC and states a " rumor " that this baby could top out at 1145' rather than the data
base figure of 1121' .

So now you went and done did it , because I'm salivating over a rumor that might contain a smidgen
of truth .

Don't get too excited

The rumor mentioned in my Instagram post was in response to Plokoon's post several pages back in the CITC thread that he stopped and personally spoke with a construction manager at the CITC site who said the height was increased to 1145' and a floor added due to mechanicals in the architectural lantern. This seems to corroborate the rumor started by a guy on the SSC forums, but Liberty, Comcast, and Foster continue to cite the 1121' figure, so who knows.

UrbanRevival · #**7944** Posted **Jul 2, 2015, 7:14 PM**

This isn't directly development-related, but I think this statistic reflects pretty positively on office demand for Philadelphia, which of course is fundamental in spurring new development. For Q2 2015, office demand in the Philly metro even outpaced New York and Chicago by raw numbers.

Quote:

Office Rent Increases Accelerating in Most U.S. Cities

Jul 02, 2015 10:44 ET

..."Rent growth trends are clearly spreading to more geographic areas and are being driven mostly by strong demand trends in the CBDs," Mr. Thorpe said. "Downtown areas in most U.S. cities are thriving right now, which is pushing rental rates up not only for high-quality class A space but across the board. Suburban office is still muddling through in most places, but the demand metrics in the CBDs are as robust as anything we have observed since the late 1990s."

For Q2 2015, the top 10 strongest markets in terms of demand for office space were San Jose, with 3.8 msf; Dallas, with 1.5 msf; Oakland, with 1.4 msf; Los Angeles, with 1.2 msf; Atlanta, with 993,000 sf; Phoenix, with 850,000 sf; Raleigh-Durham, with 828,000 sf; Philadelphia, with 723,000 sf; New York, with 709,000 sf; and Chicago, with 525,000 sf.

Hopefully, this is a start of a new, long-term trend.

https://www.virtualpressoffice.com/publi...therPageToDisableHistory=Y&menuName=News

Plokoon11 · #**7945** Posted **Jul 2, 2015, 7:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Late1

Don't get too excited

The rumor mentioned in my Instagram post was in response to Plokoon's post several pages back in the CITC thread that he stopped and personally spoke with a construction manager at the CITC site who said the height was increased to 1145' and a floor added due to mechanicals in the architectural lantern. This seems to corroborate the rumor started by a guy on the SSC forums, but Liberty, Comcast, and Foster continue to cite the 1121' figure, so who knows.

Late1 someone else stopped by to talk to a construction worker, not me.

Late1 · #**7946** Posted **Jul 2, 2015, 9:10 PM**

Sorry, I just went back and saw you were just quoting the guy from SSC. So he's probably just jerking our chains

jjv007 · #**7947** Posted **Jul 2, 2015, 10:39 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plokoon11

Late1 someone else stopped by to talk to a construction worker, not me.

So we have one source or two?

Plokoon11 · #**7948** Posted **Jul 2, 2015, 10:54 PM**

Two sources, a guy who's company is involved with building it, and someone else who walked by and asked one of the manager people.

allovertown · #**7949** Posted **Jul 3, 2015, 12:27 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by summersm343

The placement of the buildings is definitely in anticipation of future intensification. The buildings meet the streets, and the parking lots are placed carefully so they can be built on at later dates. Hopefully the city and SEPTA can pull it together and get a Broad Street line expansion down there and Philly could have a nice new modern urban business district and residential neighborhood.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.894935,-...WU56RTQRqYEIA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Speaking of the far away future of the Navy Yard and its potential as an urban space, what are the challenges of building further east on the island currently besides a lack of demand? If the Navy Yard really does begin to urbanize and become more densely pack how much further can they expand east into what is now mostly dirt roads and open field? Is this land possible to build on?

summersm343 · #**7950** Posted **Jul 3, 2015, 2:06 AM**

New thread - Philadelphia Live! Hotel & Casino
10th and Packer Ave
18 floors

Thread link:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=217785

http://billypenn.com/2015/07/01/details-...no-revealed-including-planned-asian-pit/

Guipos08 · #**7951** Posted **Jul 3, 2015, 2:31 AM**

^^^ Another Sugarhouse proposal, also do we really need 5 casinos within 30 minutes of each other. How much of a shitty gambling experience can one need?

hammersklavier · #**7952** Posted **Jul 3, 2015, 4:13 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by allovertown

Speaking of the far away future of the Navy Yard and its potential as an urban space, what are the challenges of building further east on the island currently besides a lack of demand? If the Navy Yard really does begin to urbanize and become more densely pack how much further can they expand east into what is now mostly dirt roads and open field? Is this land possible to build on?

The easternmost part of the Navy Yard is supposed to be part of long-promised Southport.

Greenwich Yard is gigantic (by urban standards, obviously, not by railroad ones) and effectively funnels nearly all traffic into or out of the Navy Yard across Broad Street. 26th St. exists, yes, but is way too far to the west to be usable for non-drivers. This is not going to change in your, mine, or anyone else's lifetimes: Greenwich Yard is the landport terminus for the Port of Philadelphia. Even if CSX were to put in a big new landport on some greenfield halfway between here and New York (NS already has one just outside of Trenton) you need Greenwich Yard where it is because that's where the containers are unloaded from ships and put on trains.

DIESELPOLO · #**7953** Posted **Jul 3, 2015, 6:16 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guipos08

^^^ Another Sugarhouse proposal, also do we really need 5 casinos within 30 minutes of each other. How much of a shitty gambling experience can one need?

This nugget at the end of the article discussing the announcement of the Live! casino hotel:

According to the Las Vegas Review-Journal, “Zarnett told investors Philadelphia would welcome another cheesesteak shop,” but not another casino. The analyst and those in his group believe another casino can only hurt the existing, already over-saturated gambling market — which includes a casino operated by Live! co-developer Greenwood Gaming, Parx in Bensalem. “In our view,” Zarnett said, “the addition of the Live! casino will have more of a deleterious impact on the market.”

cafeguy · #**7954** Posted **Jul 3, 2015, 1:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIESELPOLO

This nugget at the end of the article discussing the announcement of the Live! casino hotel:

According to the Las Vegas Review-Journal, “Zarnett told investors Philadelphia would welcome another cheesesteak shop,” but not another casino. The analyst and those in his group believe another casino can only hurt the existing, already over-saturated gambling market — which includes a casino operated by Live! co-developer Greenwood Gaming, Parx in Bensalem. “In our view,” Zarnett said, “the addition of the Live! casino will have more of a deleterious impact on the market.”

Live looks better than most. I'd be happy if that one opened and it caused another to close. Competition is a good thing. Sugarhouse is in a nice location, though, so hopefully sugerhouse and live do well and maybe harrahs closes.

philly13 · #**7955** Posted **Jul 3, 2015, 2:29 PM**

Is the hotel tower part of phase 1? Or will it be built at a later phase which could mean it'll never be built.

cafeguy · #**7956** Posted **Jul 3, 2015, 4:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly13

Is the hotel tower part of phase 1? Or will it be built at a later phase which could mean it'll never be built.

Pretty sure they are tearing down a hotel to build this right? Or just renovating that hotel down there? The board can't possibly fall for that the second time around since Sugarhouse included a hotel in future phases as well.

PhillyPhlyr · #**7957** Posted **Jul 3, 2015, 6:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cafeguy

Pretty sure they are tearing down a hotel to build this right? Or just renovating that hotel down there? The board can't possibly fall for that the second time around since Sugarhouse included a hotel in future phases as well.

Last I heard they will renovate the Holiday Inn that is already there and build around it.

SJBadger · #**7958** Posted **Jul 3, 2015, 7:35 PM**

According to the information posted by Summersm in the Casino Live thread, the Holiday Inn and parking lot are already scheduled for demolition.

summersm343 · #**7959** Posted **Jul 3, 2015, 7:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhillyPhlyr

Last I heard they will renovate the Holiday Inn that is already there and build around it.

The holiday inn will be demo'd and a new 18 floor hotel will be constructed.

acenturi · #**7960** Posted **Jul 4, 2015, 9:50 PM**

Extensive Saffron analysis of the Gallery, with the usual negatives thrown in - but IMO, very well thought out.
http://www.philly.com/philly/home/The_Fashion_Outlets.html