Tempe Development Thread

[ASUPope]

So if I understand this correctly, most of the mid to high rise buildings on Rural/Rio Salado will be leased by ASU to help pay for athletics? As an ASU fan I like this idea, but how will the public perception of this go over. Does any other university do this?

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

The first route that makes the most sense is Rio Salado Parkway out to Tempe Mkt Place then up Mill continuing on to Apache to where it picks up the Light Rail. The second route should be from Apache and Rural to Southern where the Tempe Library, Community Center etc is then down Southern to Mill then Mill to where it hooks toward Apache. That way the maximum amount of Students, Professors and people who work in the low rises on Rio and Mill would utilize it.

So, you're saying that the proposed route (with an extension to TMP) makes the most sense? I just don't see how the rationale behind that. TMP is a suburban shopping center, and the land between it and the currently proposed terminus of the streetcar at Packard Drive is completely devoid of any residential uses - and connecting dense residential neighborhoods to mass transit is one of the main criteria for federal funding. TMP is well-served by the city's bus system; an expensive streetcar line just isn't necessary at this point. Once Southbank and the Stadium District is complete, then maybe - but by then, a BRT line should be running down Rural Rd which would render this useless.

The rest of the existing line doesn't accomplish anything. There are LRT stops at Mill/3rd, University/Rural, and Apache/Dorsey; an extensive bus system that serves the major streets throughout all of downtown and its immediate neighborhoods; and, the area is already very pedestrian-oriented, and filled with occupants who are willing able to walk moderate distances to reach their destinations/reach another mode of transit. Additionally, by selecting a mixed-traffic alignment for the entire segment, the streetcar's service levels and efficiency will be unpredictable and make walking or biking even more preferable. The proposed route's ridership will essentially cannibalize existing mass transit services if anything. It doesn't connect LRT to any new attractions, centers of commerce, entertainment venues, etc. within Tempe, nor does it connect any residential or commercial centers to each other that are not already serviced by other modes.

TempeSilverFox - thanks for the photos of Hanover; that would've been a great project south of The Yard along Farmer, or as a redevelopment project along University west of Mill, etc. I'm not quite sure why the DRC keeps denying Southbank projects for their lack of height and mixed-use qualities, yet let this low-rise, single-use apartment be built next to the tallest towers in the city, and adjacent to the only E-W connection between Farmer and College (5th St). Creating an active streetscape along 5th should be a priority, and since this site is surrounded by poorly-designed, outdated buildings, it was even more important to establish some kind of retail presence if the goal is for that to expand west of Mill. And, while I understand the new development shouldn't have had to cater their designs around the vision Centerpoint had for 6th Street, the view down 6th St is extremely claustrophobic as the 0-setback Hanover rectangle abuts the open plaza of W6 with the towers' retail off-set on an angle in the distance. Hanover should mirorred the angled design and positioned its main entrance at that intersection, which along with increased setbacks would have made the west end of 6th St more sensible.

Overall, with 400+ units, I'm glad they are packing in non-student, fairly wealthy residents into the center of downtown.

[Jjs5056]

Who knows what will get built, but 9 high-rise office pads is nothing to shake a stick at. This may be the deathknell for Downtown Phoenix.

The successful growth of Tempe shouldn't be the death knell for DTPHX; maybe it will be, but there are countless major cities in the U.S. with similarly-developed suburbs, especially those that house Universities.

Anyway, the plans are obviously extremely vague - and given ASU's definition of 'high rise' in DTPHX was 6 stories, it's even harder to try and predict what will be built and what impact it might have. Even more likely, though, is that there will probably be some other new "master MASTER plan" released before a decent portion of this gets off the ground. It seems that the Tempe campus has a new vision every 5 years or so, and no update has yet to tie them all together. In this, the lakefront development - which looks to follow other developments in having an insular design - and positioning of retail components onto the 'interior' campus roads all point to a lack of priority being given to the District's integration with Downtown. At the very least, Rio Salado and Rural Road buildings should be designed with the highest intensities and should encourage the use of future mass transit that could ultimately serve as the link between all of these separate areas - which they very well may be; but, I'm just basing this off of what's been released.

Overall, I just feel like ASU has multiple visions for its Tempe campus, and the City of Tempe has multiple visions for its Downtown and Lake District; as pieces of each are achieved, and the rest abandoned, it's making for a really strange reality. We're seeing ASU plans for high rise commercial buildings, hotels, and urban multifamily over a mile from Downtown Tempe, while student housing is built on College Ave and along Apache, and ASU classrooms/offices take up tons of space in prime buildings like the Brickyard. And, there's:
1) a massive empty lot at the entry to Downtown Tempe at Mill/University which has been there for a decade+
2) large pieces of Block 12 on College Ave undeveloped in an area that has been said to be an important piece of the ASU-Tempe connection

...and yet their fate is unknown while already developed sites are being set aside for immediate investment.

I guess I would've like to have seen this plan worked out in tandem with an updated master plan for the Tempe Campus that focused on how the traditional campus will serve as a transition between the Stadium District and Downtown Tempe. Even better would be coordination with the City to ensure all 3 plans were aligned.

[Jjs5056]

Southbank Lot 1 was approved with stipulations by the DRC; they recommended that Lot 6 be denied.

http://www.tempe.gov/Home/ShowDocument?id=33733

The main rationale seems to be that Lot 1, since it's positioned along Rio Salado can serve as a transition into higher buildings along the lake; however, Lot 6 - adjacent to the lake - should be higher and have more interaction with the multi-use path, etc. They actually specifically outlined a minimum of 200' in their recommended conditions for approval.

I get that they must be frustrated seeing these proposals coming through that vary so much from what was approved back in 2007, but that's the reality of breaking what was once property owned by one developer into multiple projects and stakeholders. This is also what happens when you have a vision for an area, like the lake, but the implementation of such a vision is done on a plot-by-plot basis; for example, they want to see activated pedestrian uses along the lake's edge, but one, 5-story residential project isn't going to support commercial uses at this point.

While I'm glad they are sticking to this vision for wanting intense development of property along the lakefront, I also think they've been extremely inconsistent in denying these requests, yet allowing projects like SALT, The Jefferson, and AC Marriott, which were all proposed on lots that were surrounded by dense development that could've supported active ground levels along the lake, and set precedence for building taller.

[PHXFlyer11]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/...ts-to-bring-hotel-conference-center.html

I get USA Place is dead. I'm not understanding the point of this article. They say no new RFP is being created. Does that mean they are still looking for people to respond to the original? Does it mean perhaps talks are still ongoing with Omni? Or does it mean this is so far out in the future now that no RFP will take place for the foreseeable future? Sounds like the latter to me... in which case, I see no point to this article.

You're basically saying ASU still wants a hotel & convention center but isn't going to issue a RFP anytime soon?!

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Southbank Lot 1 was approved with stipulations by the DRC; they recommended that Lot 6 be denied.

http://www.tempe.gov/Home/ShowDocument?id=33733

The main rationale seems to be that Lot 1, since it's positioned along Rio Salado can serve as a transition into higher buildings along the lake; however, Lot 6 - adjacent to the lake - should be higher and have more interaction with the multi-use path, etc. They actually specifically outlined a minimum of 200' in their recommended conditions for approval.

I'm not sure what the document said, but both were delayed to last nights DRC. And both were approved during last night's meeting.

http://www.tempe.gov/Home/ShowDocument?id=33857

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

So, you're saying that the proposed route (with an extension to TMP) makes the most sense? I just don't see how the rationale behind that. TMP is a suburban shopping center, and the land between it and the currently proposed terminus of the streetcar at Packard Drive is completely devoid of any residential uses - and connecting dense residential neighborhoods to mass transit is one of the main criteria for federal funding. TMP is well-served by the city's bus system; an expensive streetcar line just isn't necessary at this point. Once Southbank and the Stadium District is complete, then maybe - but by then, a BRT line should be running down Rural Rd which would render this useless.

The rest of the existing line doesn't accomplish anything. There are LRT stops at Mill/3rd, University/Rural, and Apache/Dorsey; an extensive bus system that serves the major streets throughout all of downtown and its immediate neighborhoods; and, the area is already very pedestrian-oriented, and filled with occupants who are willing able to walk moderate distances to reach their destinations/reach another mode of transit. Additionally, by selecting a mixed-traffic alignment for the entire segment, the streetcar's service levels and efficiency will be unpredictable and make walking or biking even more preferable. The proposed route's ridership will essentially cannibalize existing mass transit services if anything. It doesn't connect LRT to any new attractions, centers of commerce, entertainment venues, etc. within Tempe, nor does it connect any residential or commercial centers to each other that are not already serviced by other modes.

TempeSilverFox - thanks for the photos of Hanover; that would've been a great project south of The Yard along Farmer, or as a redevelopment project along University west of Mill, etc. I'm not quite sure why the DRC keeps denying Southbank projects for their lack of height and mixed-use qualities, yet let this low-rise, single-use apartment be built next to the tallest towers in the city, and adjacent to the only E-W connection between Farmer and College (5th St). Creating an active streetscape along 5th should be a priority, and since this site is surrounded by poorly-designed, outdated buildings, it was even more important to establish some kind of retail presence if the goal is for that to expand west of Mill. And, while I understand the new development shouldn't have had to cater their designs around the vision Centerpoint had for 6th Street, the view down 6th St is extremely claustrophobic as the 0-setback Hanover rectangle abuts the open plaza of W6 with the towers' retail off-set on an angle in the distance. Hanover should mirorred the angled design and positioned its main entrance at that intersection, which along with increased setbacks would have made the west end of 6th St more sensible.

Overall, with 400+ units, I'm glad they are packing in non-student, fairly wealthy residents into the center of downtown.

When those offices for State Farm open with 6 thousand employees hungry for lunch and the additional low rise at HF the low rise at Mill and Rio and more to come when ASU'S new district buildings come on line the route to TMP will be very valid indeed for electric rail . Try to overcome the myopia and project out to the future a little.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

When those offices for State Farm open with 6 thousand employees hungry for lunch and the additional low rise at HF the low rise at Mill and Rio and more to come when ASU'S new district buildings come on line the route to TMP will be very valid indeed for electric rail . Try to overcome the myopia and project out to the future a little.

Will also have 100 Mill, Flour Mill Hotel & Concert Venue, HFL 3, SALT and Marriott AC right there. That is going to generate ALOT of traffic. I think this is a good thing and support the street car.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

When those offices for State Farm open with 6 thousand employees hungry for lunch and the additional low rise at HF the low rise at Mill and Rio and more to come when ASU'S new district buildings come on line the route to TMP will be very valid indeed for electric rail . Try to overcome the myopia and project out to the future a little.

We are all pretty worried about that!

I actually move in November to the main building (assuming I'm still in the same position) Ill take pictures!

Update, Actually a lot of work going on at the Grand At Papago lots of dirt moving.

Liberty Trust is almost built out

The Retail at 54th street is already framed out in cinderblock, a Starbucks is announced as tenant.

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by Obadno

We are all pretty worried about that!

I actually move in November to the main building (assuming I'm still in the same position) Ill take pictures!

Update, Actually a lot of work going on at the Grand At Papago lots of dirt moving.

Liberty Trust is almost built out

The Retail at 54th street is already framed out in cinderblock, a Starbucks is announced as tenant.

54th and what?

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

54th and what?

My bad 55th and Broadway, backside of Tempe Bute

[ASUPope]

I work nearby and drive by it everyday. The Starbucks and other new builds are taking a different approach than almost everything on Broadway. They are being built pretty much right up to the street on the corner, but then it appears they are slowly moving away from the street as it gets further east. It is really a strange orientation and I am really wondering what the final layout will look like.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/...ts-to-bring-hotel-conference-center.html

I get USA Place is dead. I'm not understanding the point of this article. They say no new RFP is being created. Does that mean they are still looking for people to respond to the original? Does it mean perhaps talks are still ongoing with Omni? Or does it mean this is so far out in the future now that no RFP will take place for the foreseeable future? Sounds like the latter to me... in which case, I see no point to this article.

You're basically saying ASU still wants a hotel & convention center but isn't going to issue a RFP anytime soon?!

I would agree with your assumption. AFAIK, ASU is required to go to RFP for its projects, and I can't imagine it being legal for them to simply extend the submission deadline and accept new bids without formally releasing new request. As far as working with Omni, I'm not positive, but I believe the contract with ASU was exclusive to the development team. USA Place/Concord Eastridge + co. were responsible for securing the partnership with Omni. If Omni is still interested in the Tempe market, they would still need a developer to manage the land acquisition, construction, etc. for the structure... a developer that would need to be selected by ASU from a new RFP if Mill Ave/University were to be the site. It would otherwise be like PF Changs building a standalone restaurant on Patriots Square Park is RED had bailed out of CityScape just because they had committed to being a tenant at one point.

When those offices for State Farm open with 6 thousand employees hungry for lunch and the additional low rise at HF the low rise at Mill and Rio and more to come when ASU'S new district buildings come on line the route to TMP will be very valid indeed for electric rail . Try to overcome the myopia and project out to the future a little.

Will also have 100 Mill, Flour Mill Hotel & Concert Venue, HFL 3, SALT and Marriott AC right there. That is going to generate ALOT of traffic. I think this is a good thing and support the street car.

6 million "lunch hungry office workers" ...? Are you for real? This is a $200 million mass transit line, not a lunch-time trolley. We are talking about Downtown Tempe and a project with $1 million square feet of its own retail. If these workers can't walk to Mill, pack a lunch, or find something to their taste just outside their lobby (maybe even WITHIN their lobby), then a $200 million streetcar isn't going to fix their problems. And, I'm being myopic?

Assuming you realize that transit should serve more purposes than shuttling hungry office workers to Subway, here is why the line makes no sense. There is a light rail stop at 3rd St./Mill Avenue; the furthest new building out of the 7 projects mentioned that are planned to open within the next few years is State Farm's eastern-most office tower. A walk to that office from the light rail is .75 miles, and about 15 minutes. The accepted standard for the distance users are willing to travel is .50 miles. Luckily, as I mentioned, Tempe has multiple mass transit options, so the workers in this 1 office building can take the 72 bus route from Mill Ave/3rd to Rural/Rio Salado, reducing their travel to just .20 miles. A person willing to take the streetcar to Marina Heights is just as willing to take LRT + either a short bus ride or short walk.

I agree that these projects are going "to generate A LOT of traffic." That's why money should be invested into new transportation lines that will actually reduce that traffic and supplement what already exists. How many people who will be working at these new offices do you actually think will be living within .50 miles of a proposed stop? The most likely places are in one of the apartments along Apache from Rural - McClintock, at Playa del Norte, in Downtown Tempe, or in the neighborhood immediately west of Mill. ALL of those areas are served by light rail, bus, or Orbit - many of them are served by both. Tempe is also one of the most bike-friendly cities in the region.

The reality is that a very small number of people working in these new offices are going to use mass transit instead of their car given the enormous, free parking garages each is building and the necessity of owning a car to go pretty much anywhere else in the metro area. If a car-less lifestyle were attainable, and/or parking made less convenient, perhaps that number would grow. Regardless, a streetcar operating in mixed traffic in the same area as other modes of transportation will not do either of those things.

As far as looking to the long-term and potential ASU buildings toward McClintock, again - bus service already exists. And, BRT is planned for Rural/Scottsdale Rd. $200 million is a lot of money to spend on serving the needs of people who already have several options available to them/to offices and commercial buildings that are already centrally located and easily accessible. That's $200 million that could have easily been spent on more effective modes, more efficient modes, connecting more riders to the greater transportation network and/or to commercial areas not currently served. For the record, ~10 miles for BRT could have been built for the same cost... that's a line from Warner to just short of McKellips. But, yes, it's far smarter to give ASU students along Apache a quicker trip down to Mill Ave.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Luckily, as I mentioned, Tempe has multiple mass transit options, so the workers in this 1 office building can take the 72 bus route from Mill Ave/3rd to Rural/Rio Salado, reducing their travel to just .20 miles. A person willing to take the streetcar to Marina Heights is just as willing to take LRT + either a short bus ride or short walk.

...

As far as looking to the long-term and potential ASU buildings toward McClintock, again - bus service already exists. And, BRT is planned for Rural/Scottsdale Rd. $200 million is a lot of money to spend on serving the needs of people who already have several options available to them/to offices and commercial buildings that are already centrally located and easily accessible. That's $200 million that could have easily been spent on more effective modes, more efficient modes, connecting more riders to the greater transportation network and/or to commercial areas not currently served. For the record, ~10 miles for BRT could have been built for the same cost... that's a line from Warner to just short of McKellips. But, yes, it's far smarter to give ASU students along Apache a quicker trip down to Mill Ave.

The 72 bus doesn't serve the Mill Ave / 3rd St. station. It deviates from its Rural / Scottsdale route to go into the Tempe Transportation Center but never goes as far west as Mill and doesn't run along Rio Solado. I'm not aware of any existing public transit route that connects Mill Avenue to the new developments along Rio Solado Parkway between Mill and Rural.

As for the broader arguments against the Tempe Streetcar, I'm on the fence about the current plan. It will have to run at high frequency to be competitive with walking / bicycling the last mile around Downtown Tempe and ASU. I'm hoping the business improvement district being discussed will provide that level of funding. Otherwise, the project may not accomplish its goals.

Nevertheless, the currently planned route is far better than the original one, which would have been wasted serving neighborhoods of single family homes along south Mill Avenue, where there is little available land for transit-oriented development. And we've already been over why I have little faith in BRT.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

6 million "lunch hungry office workers" ...? Are you for real? This is a $200 million mass transit line, not a lunch-time trolley. We are talking about Downtown Tempe and a project with $1 million square feet of its own retail. If these workers can't walk to Mill, pack a lunch, or find something to their taste just outside their lobby (maybe even WITHIN their lobby), then a $200 million streetcar isn't going to fix their problems. And, I'm being myopic?

Um. He said 6 thousand. And I agree with him. I'm sorry, but if I worked there I would absolutely take the street car. Especially when it's 110 out. No way I'd walk from Marina Heights to Mill in this heat in work clothes.

Similarly, I do take the light rail all the time and would take a street car regularly. I've taken the bus however once in my life. And I probably won't again.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Similarly, I do take the light rail all the time and would take a street car regularly. I've taken the bus however once in my life. And I probably won't again.

...and that's a set of consumer preferences I hear a lot (for understandable reasons). It's something that always needs to be kept in mind when arguing that money should be spent on BRT rather than rail projects. I support improving regular bus service because those who use that mode deserve a better experience, but I have little illusion that buses, no matter how enhanced with BRT amenities, will ever attract discretionary passengers and catalyze development in the way that rail can.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

...and that's a set of consumer preferences I hear a lot (for understandable reasons). It's something that always needs to be kept in mind when arguing that money should be spent on BRT rather than rail projects. I support improving regular bus service because those who use that mode deserve a better experience, but I have little illusion that buses, no matter how enhanced with BRT amenities, will ever attract discretionary passengers and catalyze development in the way that rail can.

You are exactly right. And it's not a Phoenix thing, or anything that will change. Look at New York or San Francisco or any other American city. Busses are seen as lower income orientated or for people with limited options. Trains attract people who have the means but choose to rail for whatever reason. It's a fact that has to be accepted, not something we can try to change.

If I can take a train I will. If not, I will drive. The bus is not even I my consideration set.

[TempeSilverFox]

Hi all! I went for an evening stroll and wanted to share photos of some of the projects at or near Tempe Town Lake!
I apologize in advance for the large size of all the photos. I don't have the patience to figure out how to make them smaller lol, and I know it's a bit dark, but it was the only time of day it felt ok to be out and about. Here they are!

Here is Hayden Ferry Lakeside III! They just installed an electric blue "fin" to compliment the one on HFL II







Here is the Marriott AC Hotel under construction. Looks like they are working on the 3rd story:





Here is SALT - (between HFL and State Farm)





Here is the Lodge (formerly the Sail Inn) which is diagonal from Culinary Dropout on Farmer. I chatted with a guy out front who indicated they plan to open their doors in mid July!





And finally a shot of SkyWater (formerly known as Argo) from First Street. Looks like they are nearly done. Looks great!

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

I would agree with your assumption. AFAIK, ASU is required to go to RFP for its projects, and I can't imagine it being legal for them to simply extend the submission deadline and accept new bids without formally releasing new request. As far as working with Omni, I'm not positive, but I believe the contract with ASU was exclusive to the development team. USA Place/Concord Eastridge + co. were responsible for securing the partnership with Omni. If Omni is still interested in the Tempe market, they would still need a developer to manage the land acquisition, construction, etc. for the structure... a developer that would need to be selected by ASU from a new RFP if Mill Ave/University were to be the site. It would otherwise be like PF Changs building a standalone restaurant on Patriots Square Park is RED had bailed out of CityScape just because they had committed to being a tenant at one point.





6 million "lunch hungry office workers" ...? Are you for real? This is a $200 million mass transit line, not a lunch-time trolley. We are talking about Downtown Tempe and a project with $1 million square feet of its own retail. If these workers can't walk to Mill, pack a lunch, or find something to their taste just outside their lobby (maybe even WITHIN their lobby), then a $200 million streetcar isn't going to fix their problems. And, I'm being myopic?

Assuming you realize that transit should serve more purposes than shuttling hungry office workers to Subway, here is why the line makes no sense. There is a light rail stop at 3rd St./Mill Avenue; the furthest new building out of the 7 projects mentioned that are planned to open within the next few years is State Farm's eastern-most office tower. A walk to that office from the light rail is .75 miles, and about 15 minutes. The accepted standard for the distance users are willing to travel is .50 miles. Luckily, as I mentioned, Tempe has multiple mass transit options, so the workers in this 1 office building can take the 72 bus route from Mill Ave/3rd to Rural/Rio Salado, reducing their travel to just .20 miles. A person willing to take the streetcar to Marina Heights is just as willing to take LRT + either a short bus ride or short walk.

I agree that these projects are going "to generate A LOT of traffic." That's why money should be invested into new transportation lines that will actually reduce that traffic and supplement what already exists. How many people who will be working at these new offices do you actually think will be living within .50 miles of a proposed stop? The most likely places are in one of the apartments along Apache from Rural - McClintock, at Playa del Norte, in Downtown Tempe, or in the neighborhood immediately west of Mill. ALL of those areas are served by light rail, bus, or Orbit - many of them are served by both. Tempe is also one of the most bike-friendly cities in the region.

The reality is that a very small number of people working in these new offices are going to use mass transit instead of their car given the enormous, free parking garages each is building and the necessity of owning a car to go pretty much anywhere else in the metro area. If a car-less lifestyle were attainable, and/or parking made less convenient, perhaps that number would grow. Regardless, a streetcar operating in mixed traffic in the same area as other modes of transportation will not do either of those things.

As far as looking to the long-term and potential ASU buildings toward McClintock, again - bus service already exists. And, BRT is planned for Rural/Scottsdale Rd. $200 million is a lot of money to spend on serving the needs of people who already have several options available to them/to offices and commercial buildings that are already centrally located and easily accessible. That's $200 million that could have easily been spent on more effective modes, more efficient modes, connecting more riders to the greater transportation network and/or to commercial areas not currently served. For the record, ~10 miles for BRT could have been built for the same cost... that's a line from Warner to just short of McKellips. But, yes, it's far smarter to give ASU students along Apache a quicker trip down to Mill Ave.

I agree with Phoenix Flyer people will ride rail that won't ride buses this area is going to be incredibly dense with buildings, traffic, and people. If the rail gets started down Rio Salado it's going to eventually go to TMP and the sooner the better keep ranting about buses or get on board with the future my friend.

[DevilsRider]

Originally Posted by TempeSilverFox

Hi all! I went for an evening stroll and wanted to share photos of some of the projects at or near Tempe Town Lake!
I apologize in advance for the large size of all the photos. I don't have the patience to figure out how to make them smaller lol, and I know it's a bit dark, but it was the only time of day it felt ok to be out and about. Here they are

Thanks for braving the heat and capturing some photos of all the progress happening in Tempe! I'm excited for The Lodge to open up there, and for Skywater to finally finish construction. Looks like they did a very good job fronting 1st Street!