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  #1721  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 2:55 PM
king10 king10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Oilkountry View Post
have they already poured the concrete and extented the upper level bowl?

I can't really tell

EDIT: nevermind, your picture on the previous page clearly shows the concrete has been poured.

Thanks for the pics!

The stairs leading down to the loge seats look like you can easily fall over the guard rail. scary!
     
     
  #1722  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 7:23 PM
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Riders announced a profit of 2.2 million last season. That shows you how tight the profit margins are. 42M operating budget. Makes me wonder how much the Cats/Argos are losing per season
     
     
  #1723  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 7:55 PM
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English please. You're in Canada now
What do you mean ''now''? We were in Canada before Canada was even known as Canada!
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  #1724  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 8:15 PM
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Riders announced a profit of 2.2 million last season. That shows you how tight the profit margins are. 42M operating budget. Makes me wonder how much the Cats/Argos are losing per season
Something seems off when it comes to CFL team balance sheets. The cap is a hair over $5M... where does the rest of that money go? I know the other teams have lower revenue lines than the Riders, but still, even if you bring in half of what the Riders do, $5M still seems oddly low for a football team roster.

I'm not saying I want CFL salaries to rise dramatically, but I think it would be good for the league if it paid enough to be the unequivocal #2 choice of pro players. I'm sure there are some talented college players who walk away because they don't want to risk their health for a rookie import salary of $50K or whatever.
     
     
  #1725  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Oilkountry View Post
Riders announced a profit of 2.2 million last season. That shows you how tight the profit margins are. 42M operating budget. Makes me wonder how much the Cats/Argos are losing per season
Why Cats? They'll make money. Had they played all their games at THF last year they would have made money.

Before the TV contract. Good general article on the financial side to running a stadium - elly

Mitchell answers questions
Steve Milton Sep 01 2011 theSpec.com

At first blush, it all seems counterintuitive.

How can building new stands on the north side of Ivor Wynne Stadium not cost more than renovating the current ones?

And how can the significantly reduced seating capacity — from the original 25,000 seats to a reported 22,500 — not negatively impact the Hamilton Tiger-Cats’ bottom line?

Those were among the nagging questions after it was revealed last week that plans for the Pan Am Stadium on the current site of Ivor Wynne now call for the entire north stands to be torn down and rebuilt, instead of being refurbished atop the current infrastructure.

“This is absolutely and positively the most cost-efficient and responsible decision,” Ticat president Scott Mitchell answered Wednesday. “This isn’t a good thing, it’s a great thing.”

By agreeing to the reduced seat inventory, the Ticats made a major concession to Infrastructure Ontario to keep construction costs at the original estimate.

And, Mitchell says, potential builders will welcome the idea of constructing the north stands from the ground up, rather than trying to work around existing flaws, many of which are major.

“That’s 100 per cent accurate,” Mitchell said. “This creates cost certainty in the construction phase. You never know what you’re going to find out when you renovate. It might have involved all kinds of (capital) expense that wasn’t anticipated. And this prohibits the city from potentially having to spend tens of millions of dollars in maintenance of the north stands in the next few years.”

Additionally, having renovated north stands with uncomfortable bench seating and the same washroom and concession facilities as in the past would have meant that the Cats, and the city, were going to operate, in effect, two different facilities.

“What was clearly emerging was a have-versus-have-not scenario on the two sides of the stadium,” he said. “And that’s not conducive to effective cost management or a good in-stadium experience.”

The Tiger-Cats need to derive $10 million per year, or roughly $1 million per game, from ticket sales. Mitchell, bound by a confidentiality clause, would not comment on the exact capacity of the new stadium. But assuming the 22,500 figure is accurate, at an average $50 per ticket, the Cats will cover the $10 million as long as they sell out most games.

And a smaller stadium actually helps dramatically with that. Increasing the demand for tickets because there is a limited supply should translate into more season ticket holders than the current number, estimated to be slightly under 15,000. The Chicago Cubs and Boston Red Sox have always operated that way because of their old, small stadiums, but in 1990 the Baltimore Orioles became the first professional sports team to deliberately build a new stadium smaller than their old one. That forces fans to buy season’s tickets for fear that they won’t be able to get the tickets for games they really want. Then, weather and the competitive state of the team don’t affect sales as profoundly. The Montreal Alouettes had the same situation with the 20,000-seat Molson Stadium, and sold out every game for years.

The Ticats average between 23,000 and 24,000 spectators per game but about 20 per cent of them enjoy complimentary tickets, significantly lower than the figure from three years ago but still nearly double the industry standard. Tightening up on contra (tickets instead of cash, paid for services) and special group sales will allow the Cats to realize full income from a far greater percentage of the seats.

“So the biggest casualty in the capacity reduction will be those contra deals and big corporate buys,” Mitchell said.

The break-even point for most CFL teams is believed to be about $15 million in total annual income. With recent huge increases in TV viewership, broadcast revenues are expected to double or triple in the next couple of years, taking a big bite out of the $5 million income required beyond ticket sales. While the number of high-rent corporate boxes and club seats slated for the new stadium have not been revealed, there are going to be at least twice as many as there are now, adding more income potential to the Cats’ balance sheet.

“And clearly, we’ll have major increased revenue from concessions and merchandising because of an enhanced stadium experience,” Mitchell says. “It will also be a better experience for our corporate partners.”

The Ticats plan to cap individual season ticket sales at between 17,000 and 18,000. Season’s tickets prices for 2011 range from $14 per game in the end zone to $160 for the box seats at midfield. Those prices are expected to rise by two per cent next year.

But the team announced Wednesday that season’s tickets for 2012, the last season at Ivor Wynne, would cost the same as tickets for 2014, the first season in the new stadium.

“We wanted to nip in the bud all the talk that ‘I won’t be able to go to the new stadium because I can’t afford it,’” Mitchell explained.

Mitchell also said that the $1.3 million rent the Cats will pay the city in the new stadium will be the highest in the CFL and that the more income the club makes, the more the city will make on their rake-off of the profit, over and above the rental agreement.

And, he says, the seating capacity on opening day doesn’t have to remain that way. He wouldn’t comment directly, but the configuration of the new stadium has to include room for enough temporary seating to reach the 40,000 minimum required to play host to a Grey Cup Game.

“Infrastructure Ontario will deliver a great stadium, but obviously there’d be nothing stopping us, as far as far as post-Pan Am Games go, from adding more seating ourselves.”
     
     
  #1726  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 8:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
You're trying to tell us that there's a greater difference between these two photos than some news seats and a fresh coat of paint? /s
If that /s means sarcastic, then my apologies for my previous post.

Last edited by elly63; Jun 20, 2015 at 12:40 AM.
     
     
  #1727  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 9:11 PM
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^ That makes no sense. Without the grey cup the riders only profited 1.1 in 2013 and doubled it in 2014. So its fairly consistent profit margins in sask. How in gods name do the riders run a 40M OB if the rest of the CFL is lower? they don't start making payments on new mosiac untill 2016. Is it that much more expensive to operate out west or is this a salary thing?

More to the point if the riders sell out a 30,000 seat building of which im going to assume are the most expensive seats in the league and make up for 33% of all merch sales and only turn a modest profit as far as pro sports go Its got to be tough for the eastern teams who have a hard time getting 25k into a building to break even let alone profit.

The bombers profited 3.9m in 2014 and 2.9m in 2013. Something is fishy here
     
     
  #1728  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 9:23 PM
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It's the CFL. Of course there is unreported revenue.
     
     
  #1729  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 9:24 PM
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Cats will be profitable at thf this year. Scott mitchell and bob young have gone on record to say based on season tix and attendance projections as well as luxury revenue streams that the cats will be in the black for the first time in 30 years.

That sask profit number seems awfully low when winnipeg can pay down a stadium debt, have less attendance, less merch sales and still be more profitable. Sask with the new tv contract alone should be boosting its profit numbers. Im thinking there is some creative accounting going on to fib the numbers. Maybe understating profits for tax breaks or for government hand outs or pocketing some of the money or re investing it in the team.
     
     
  #1730  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 9:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Oilkountry View Post
^ That makes no sense. Without the grey cup the riders only profited 1.1 in 2013 and doubled it in 2014. So its fairly consistent profit margins in sask. How in gods name do the riders run a 40M OB if the rest of the CFL is lower? they don't start making payments on new mosiac untill 2016. Is it that much more expensive to operate out west or is this a salary thing?

More to the point if the riders sell out a 30,000 seat building of which im going to assume are the most expensive seats in the league and make up for 33% of all merch sales and only turn a modest profit as far as pro sports go Its got to be tough for the eastern teams who have a hard time getting 25k into a building to break even let alone profit.

The bombers profited 3.9m in 2014 and 2.9m in 2013. Something is fishy here
They are not the most expensive in the league. That is where the fishiness disappears. The cheap seats are reasonably pricey for CFL standards, ranging between $24 and $38 (Labour Day) depending on the game, but the usual price for a really good seat is $70 range (without ticket vending fees) which isn't that much. The Riders pull a small profit because our prices are way less than anyone else. 1/3rd the price of the best seats in Winnipeg and Montreal and 30% less than Toronto. Do that math and Saskatchewan needs to sell a lot more tickets.
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  #1731  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 9:36 PM
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I was just looking at Edmonton's profits as well 3.6M. Calgary doesn't announce because they aren't non profit but It paints a pretty clear picture for me. The motivation to make money in sask isn't there. If it was a privatized business I bet they would pull 5-8M in profit each year in the current stadium. 15+ in the new Stadium.
     
     
  #1732  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 9:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Oilkountry View Post
^ That makes no sense. Without the grey cup the riders only profited 1.1 in 2013 and doubled it in 2014. So its fairly consistent profit margins in sask. How in gods name do the riders run a 40M OB if the rest of the CFL is lower? they don't start making payments on new mosiac untill 2016. Is it that much more expensive to operate out west or is this a salary thing?

More to the point if the riders sell out a 30,000 seat building of which im going to assume are the most expensive seats in the league and make up for 33% of all merch sales and only turn a modest profit as far as pro sports go Its got to be tough for the eastern teams who have a hard time getting 25k into a building to break even let alone profit.

The bombers profited 3.9m in 2014 and 2.9m in 2013. Something is fishy here

Warning... Long post... Also answering comments of others as well...

They reported normal operations profits and Grey Cup profits separately. The Grey Cup had something like 9 mill in profits for a total profit of $10+ million last year.

There are a lot of expenses related to the preparation/building the new stadium (the Riders are putting in $40mill off the top, with sponsors helping to find that of course), then the Riders collect $12 per ticket which gets paid to the city to cover a loan from the province. So that part of "ticket revenue" isn't true revenue for them.

In any case, financials are prepared by Deloitte... I doubt hiding the profits of a CFL team would be worth the troubles that would arise from fraudulent behaviour uncovered by a regulator/auditor.

The biggest thing to keep in mind is probably that the Riders have amassed nearly $40 mill in net assets since they shifted into high gear in 2006, though $18 mill is earmarked for the stadium. That's a lot of profit that has built up... All visible...

They also put $14 mill into the current stadium, adding endzones seating, suites, new video boards, etc over the last 5 years. Doing so, they build up a base for the extra suites that will be at the new stadium and up attendance overall. They are also giving away the sections of endzones seats (14 or 15 of them) to communities around Saskatchewan after the move to the new stadium (called the Grey Cup legacy project.

Plus the Riders generally funnel back more than $1 million in funding every year to sponsorships, charities, amateur sports programs, etc around the province.

Also... The Riders sell >50% of merch... But it's generally cheaper than buying elsewhere (plus share discounts, etc), so they by choice, have a smaller margin than most would. They are better off getting the additional visibility of their brand than scrounging every last penny from fans.

If the Riders were run like a pure business, they could probably churn much higher profits, but that's not their mission, and as they are a community owned team, why should it be?

Also... As a community owned, not-for-profit, they don't pay taxes, but the money must all be held for stabilisation, funneled back into operations, or used in the community.
     
     
  #1733  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 10:17 PM
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What do you mean ''now''? We were in Canada before Canada was even known as Canada!
Ya I was gonna say I can't even speak French but it is one of Canada's official languages. Thought it was a bit disrespectful.
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  #1734  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 10:29 PM
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They are not the most expensive in the league. That is where the fishiness disappears. The cheap seats are reasonably pricey for CFL standards, ranging between $24 and $38 (Labour Day) depending on the game, but the usual price for a really good seat is $70 range (without ticket vending fees) which isn't that much. The Riders pull a small profit because our prices are way less than anyone else. 1/3rd the price of the best seats in Winnipeg and Montreal and 30% less than Toronto. Do that math and Saskatchewan needs to sell a lot more tickets.
No wonder the Roughriders are so popular! The Lions' cheapest tickets this year are $38! I guess the numbers work out for this way to be the most profitable, but it sure would be nice to lower them so we could get a little closer to BC Place's capacity.
     
     
  #1735  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 10:33 PM
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No wonder the Roughriders are so popular! The Lions' cheapest tickets this year are $38! I guess the numbers work out for this way to be the most profitable, but it sure would be nice to lower them so we could get a little closer to BC Place's capacity.
In some ways "maximizing profit" for ticket revenue almost cuts off fanbase growth/future profits. The image of a fuller stadium alone can be very influential.
     
     
  #1736  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 10:37 PM
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In some ways "maximizing profit" for ticket revenue almost cuts off fanbase growth/future profits. The image of a fuller stadium alone can be very influential.
Yeah for sure. You're restricting potential fans from discovering the game and stadium atmosphere (which contrary to popular belief can be very good) and thus restricting your future fanbase and revenue. Very much a shortsighted strategy.
     
     
  #1737  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 10:41 PM
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Only have time for a quick hit and run post, but I will just say that Riders tickets are not that cheap! Cheapest adult seat is $34 plus service charges, and the view is mediocre:

     
     
  #1738  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
You're trying to tell us that there's a greater difference between these two photos than some news seats and a fresh coat of paint? /s
Complete concourse renovation, completely new roof, new seats,new windows Its been as modernized as any grandstand can be. Has everything BC place got not sure what your complaining about...
     
     
  #1739  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 10:58 PM
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Ya I was gonna say I can't even speak French but it is one of Canada's official languages. Thought it was a bit disrespectful.
Oh come on lol it was a little joke. My entire family is from Quebec and speak french don't get bent outta shape over nothing lol
     
     
  #1740  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2015, 11:01 PM
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Complete concourse renovation, completely new roof, new seats,new windows Its been as modernized as any grandstand can be. Has everything BC place got not sure what your complaining about...
Uhhh, I believe the "/s" indicates he was being sarcastic.
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