Surrey looking to build a Major Arena

[logan5]

The best spot for an arena/event center would be the Safeway site across from the Civic Centre plaza. Would be perfect. I don't think even with the free land, that an arena developer would want his place of business in such an isolated spot. There has to be plenty of city land around Surrey Central.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by logan5

The best spot for an arena/event center would be the Safeway site across from the Civic Centre plaza. Would be perfect. I don't think even with the free land, that an arena developer would want his place of business in such an isolated spot. There has to be plenty of city land around Surrey Central.

I'd rather see in the block immediately southeast of Gateway Skytrain. Go from 108 Avenue to 107A Avenue and then between City Parkway and University Drive. Could turn that strip of 108 Avenue into a nice little entertainment hub too.

[paulsparrow]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

If they are smart that is exactly what they will do. Thats 2 anchor tenants right off the bat and the Stealth would be much more prosperous in Surrey than they are in Langley. Win-Win for both sides.

Not sure on the more prosperous in Surrey part. A LOT of people north of the Fraser won't go to Surrey, especially Whalley. Families won't go to Whalley. Add in the fact that Lacrosse is dead in Surrey and the Stealth would suffer more than if they stayed in Langley.

The only plus side would be skytrain access. That won't outweigh the losses IMO.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by paulsparrow

Not sure on the more prosperous in Surrey part. A LOT of people north of the Fraser won't go to Surrey, especially Whalley. Families won't go to Whalley. Add in the fact that Lacrosse is dead in Surrey and the Stealth would suffer more than if they stayed in Langley.

The only plus side would be skytrain access. That won't outweigh the losses IMO.

The Surrey location would be MUCH more central and would have a far greater drawing power. This doesn't even cover the access to the mass transit network which is only a rumour in Langley at the moment. Having an arena adjacent to a mass transit line is a must for modern day sports arenas. The large lacrosse communities of Coquitlam and New West (not to mention Surrey itself) would be much closer to a Surrey arena. The media which by in large ignores the Stealth now, would give the team more coverage if they weren't based so far away from Vancouver. The only reason the Stealth are in Langley to begin with is because Surrey doesn't have a suitable arena. Heck, they would be in Vancouver if the PNE and Vancouver Giants didn't stand in there way. (by way of high rental rate and exclusivity clause respectively)

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by logan5

The best spot for an arena/event center would be the Safeway site across from the Civic Centre plaza. Would be perfect. I don't think even with the free land, that an arena developer would want his place of business in such an isolated spot. There has to be plenty of city land around Surrey Central.

Was thinking the exact same thing. That area would work so much better to house a major arena and would go a long way to establishing a true entertainment district and revitalizing the city core they have been trying to build for 2 decades. But then again, this would be totally consistent with Surrey's hodge podge approach to city building

[memememe76]

I would much rather live near a Safeway than a hockey arena.

[paulsparrow]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

The Surrey location would be MUCH more central and would have a far greater drawing power. This doesn't even cover the access to the mass transit network which is only a rumour in Langley at the moment. Having an arena adjacent to a mass transit line is a must for modern day sports arenas. The large lacrosse communities of Coquitlam and New West (not to mention Surrey itself) would be much closer to a Surrey arena. The media which by in large ignores the Stealth now, would give the team more coverage if they weren't based so far away from Vancouver. The only reason the Stealth are in Langley to begin with is because Surrey doesn't have a suitable arena. Heck, they would be in Vancouver if the PNE and Vancouver Giants didn't stand in there way. (by way of high rental rate and exclusivity clause respectively)

EastVanMark. I have worked with past Pro lacrosse teams and ownership here as well as community lacrosse and I stand by what I said previously from experience and knowledge.

When you say Surrey is more "Central" you mean central to what? LEC is much closer for Coquitlam people to get to then Whalley. The demographics of Surrey is not one that really supports hockey and certainly not lacrosse (why I was part of moving junior and intermediate lacrosse out of Surrey to Langley).

Again I state families will NOT go to Whalley to watch sports. If the arena went to Bridgeview then yes you would appeal to the masses for attendance for hockey. Lacrosse is largely based now where young families are so outside of New West you are no longer central to the fans.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by paulsparrow

EastVanMark. I have worked with past Pro lacrosse teams and ownership here as well as community lacrosse and I stand by what I said previously from experience and knowledge.

When you say Surrey is more "Central" you mean central to what? LEC is much closer for Coquitlam people to get to then Whalley. The demographics of Surrey is not one that really supports hockey and certainly not lacrosse (why I was part of moving junior and intermediate lacrosse out of Surrey to Langley).

Again I state families will NOT go to Whalley to watch sports. If the arena went to Bridgeview then yes you would appeal to the masses for attendance for hockey. Lacrosse is largely based now where young families are so outside of New West you are no longer central to the fans.

Thanks for your sharing your insights and experiences Paul.
However, I would still contend that a Surrey arena would serve the the Stealth a lot better than the LEC.

First off, an arena with an adjacent rapid transit line and in a central location is in almost every case a better venue than one that is not. That goes across the board for all events, not just sports. If you want, I can provide about 40 case studies where that is clearly displayed.

Also, when I say "central" I speak to where the population is. If you drew a 20 km circle around a central Surrey Arena and the LEC, the amount of people living in the area in the Surrey one would absolutely dwarf the Langley one. When you add the aforementioned rapid transit, that makes things even worse. But lets look to the local lacrosse scene. If you take areas where lacrosse has done well and supports WLA teams such as in Coquitlam, Burnaby, and most importantly, New West, they would ALL be closer to an arena in Surrey. (not to mention as of very soon they will all be connected by Skytrain) BTW I don't know what map your looking at, but in no way, shape or form is Coquitlam closer to Langley than it is to Surrey. (Even if the arena is built at the proposed site, its still much closer than LEC).

Surrey doesn't support hockey? The numbers say otherwise. Its number of hockey participants are third largest in the entire Province of British Columbia

As for the Stealth, they play in the league's smallest venue (by far), can't even sell that out, have the lowest attendance (again by far) for the entire league. So apparently they aren't that good at drawing all those young families either. Besides, this doesn't even speak to the fact that you need more than just families to fill an arena and have a successful sports organization. For a Lacrosse example, look to the Toronto Rock who outsell both the Raptors and Maple leafs when it comes to alcohol sales on a per fan basis. Sadly the Stealth fall well, well short in pretty much everything

[paulsparrow]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Thanks for your sharing your insights and experiences Paul.
However, I would still contend that a Surrey arena would serve the the Stealth a lot better than the LEC.

First off, an arena with an adjacent rapid transit line and in a central location is in almost every case a better venue than one that is not. That goes across the board for all events, not just sports. If you want, I can provide about 40 case studies where that is clearly displayed.

Also, when I say "central" I speak to where the population is. If you drew a 20 km circle around a central Surrey Arena and the LEC, the amount of people living in the area in the Surrey one would absolutely dwarf the Langley one. When you add the aforementioned rapid transit, that makes things even worse. But lets look to the local lacrosse scene. If you take areas where lacrosse has done well and supports WLA teams such as in Coquitlam, Burnaby, and most importantly, New West, they would ALL be closer to an arena in Surrey. (not to mention as of very soon they will all be connected by Skytrain) BTW I don't know what map your looking at, but in no way, shape or form is Coquitlam closer to Langley than it is to Surrey. (Even if the arena is built at the proposed site, its still much closer than LEC).

Surrey doesn't support hockey? The numbers say otherwise. Its number of hockey participants are third largest in the entire Province of British Columbia

As for the Stealth, they play in the league's smallest venue (by far), can't even sell that out, have the lowest attendance (again by far) for the entire league. So apparently they aren't that good at drawing all those young families either. Besides, this doesn't even speak to the fact that you need more than just families to fill an arena and have a successful sports organization. For a Lacrosse example, look to the Toronto Rock who outsell both the Raptors and Maple leafs when it comes to alcohol sales on a per fan basis. Sadly the Stealth fall well, well short in pretty much everything

So let me clear some things up.
1. Lacrosse fans. There are two types that go to Stealth games. The lax guys and the families. The families won't take public transit because it would cost more than driving a car. The lax guys won't take public transit because they just don't. These aren't downtown city folk that don't have cars. So your argument about being close to transit for lacrosse don't work.

2. Lax fans. If you look at the family side and therefore youth lacrosse the largest associations are Maple Ridge, Langley, Coquitlam and New West (most likely in that order although its a bit of a guess because I've been out of that level for a few years). Surrey is one of the smallest as well as Burnaby. As to fans of adult lacrosse (lax guys) again you are looking at New West and Coquitlam as the two big ones.

3. Central for Coquitlam. If I lived in Coquitlam I would much rather hop ont he Port Mann and drive out the highway 10 mins to an arena in Walnut Grove than to jump and either drive across 104 or wind through New West to Puttello.

4. Hockey fans. Yes Surrey has a large registration but they type of demographics will tell you these are not the type of fans that will shell out money to pay for high level hockey. They play minor.

5. Stealth attendance. Yes they are the smallest attendance in the league however their attendance is up over Everett their last location. Once they put a good product on the floor they will have no trouble filling the venue. However anything larger would probably never get filled. Too many of these players can be seen locally at WLA levels for less money.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by paulsparrow

So let me clear some things up.
1. Lacrosse fans. There are two types that go to Stealth games. The lax guys and the families. The families won't take public transit because it would cost more than driving a car. The lax guys won't take public transit because they just don't. These aren't downtown city folk that don't have cars. So your argument about being close to transit for lacrosse don't work.

2. Lax fans. If you look at the family side and therefore youth lacrosse the largest associations are Maple Ridge, Langley, Coquitlam and New West (most likely in that order although its a bit of a guess because I've been out of that level for a few years). Surrey is one of the smallest as well as Burnaby. As to fans of adult lacrosse (lax guys) again you are looking at New West and Coquitlam as the two big ones.

3. Central for Coquitlam. If I lived in Coquitlam I would much rather hop ont he Port Mann and drive out the highway 10 mins to an arena in Walnut Grove than to jump and either drive across 104 or wind through New West to Puttello.

4. Hockey fans. Yes Surrey has a large registration but they type of demographics will tell you these are not the type of fans that will shell out money to pay for high level hockey. They play minor.

5. Stealth attendance. Yes they are the smallest attendance in the league however their attendance is up over Everett their last location. Once they put a good product on the floor they will have no trouble filling the venue. However anything larger would probably never get filled. Too many of these players can be seen locally at WLA levels for less money.

1. You provide no evidence that families wouldn't take public transit. They do for all sports, all over North America. There is a reason why arenas are built near public transportation. There IS evidence to support that. As I already stated, I can rattle of at least 40 instances where sport facilities were built near rapid transit lines and replaced old ones that were not.

2. Fair enough. You seem to be familiar with the minor lacrosse scene.

3. What you would personally do if you lived in Coquitlam is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that Surrey is closer (much closer) than Langley is.

4.You provide no evidence regarding spending habits of the demographics of Surrey. Pure speculation and unfounded at that.

5. No matter how you look at it, the Stealth are dead last in league attendance and its not even close. They play in the smallest building in the league and can't even sell it out. The Ravens (based in Vancouver) drew more fams. Actually attendance for the Stealth went down when they first moved to Langley. In 2013, they averaged 4,184 fans per game in Everett and averaged just 3,617 in Langley for 2014. In 2015, they drew an average of 4,208. Yup, those extra 24 fans really made a difference. But even if they sell out their arena, they still would be likely be last in attendance and nowhere near the NLL average.

Attendance for the Vancouver Ravens who played in the much larger market (Vancouver proper) playing in an arena with adjacent rapid transit line:
averaged 10,211 in year one
8,333 the second.
For the final year, the average crowd was 7,124. (they were middle of the pack in attendance back then)

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by logan5

Surrey baffles me. Why would they want to build the arena around Scott Road Station when Surrey is trying to build an energy and excitement in Surrey Central. Even if it cost more in the long run a major junior team would make downtown surrey much more attractive to developers and new businesses (that surrey desperately needs) catering to the gameday crowds. Nowadays the game day experience is an important conponent to success. An arena around Scott Road doesnt come close to providing that.

Yah on the surface I can see why you're baffled, but the overall plan for the flats down by Scott Road is to build a transit oriented residential and commercial area to complement New Westminster on the other side of the River and also bridge the gap between New Westminster and Surrey Central. Right now it's just a big void. They are pushing out the auto wreckers (another just closed down and the land is slated for redevelopment into an office park) and upgrading industry in the area. And specifically around Scott Road they want residential and commercial.

An Arena could go a long way to help that area out and is close enough to Surrey Central via transit and even walking that it would still indirectly help.

As was mentioned though a big problem is parking. That's what hurt Abbotsford a lot was a lack of parking and arenas (even Rogers Arena) still needs a fair amount of parking. I would hope that Surrey plans to build parking garages rather than just a mass of surface parking, but either way an Arena would have a far larger footprint than most of the available land right in Surrey Central right now if you include parking.

So while I would love to see an Arena with an ECHL or WHL team in it right in Surrey Central, I don't think Scott Road is a bad place. It's also just a bit closer to New Westminster, Burnaby, and Vancouver and also right along the SFPR basically so car traffic isn't going to inundate Surrey Central compared to the arena being right in the center.

It's not a bad location.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by paulsparrow

EastVanMark. I have worked with past Pro lacrosse teams and ownership here as well as community lacrosse and I stand by what I said previously from experience and knowledge.

When you say Surrey is more "Central" you mean central to what? LEC is much closer for Coquitlam people to get to then Whalley. The demographics of Surrey is not one that really supports hockey and certainly not lacrosse (why I was part of moving junior and intermediate lacrosse out of Surrey to Langley).

Again I state families will NOT go to Whalley to watch sports. If the arena went to Bridgeview then yes you would appeal to the masses for attendance for hockey. Lacrosse is largely based now where young families are so outside of New West you are no longer central to the fans.

Paul is correct when he says the LEC is much closer to Coquitlam than to get to Whalley. Coquitlam -> GEB -> LEC (which is pretty much right there) is really fast. Whalley and especially the Scott Road area would add a good 15 minutes or more.

Unfortunately I don't know anything about Lacrosse so can't even discuss the viability of a team.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Paul is correct when he says the LEC is much closer to Coquitlam than to get to Whalley. Coquitlam -> GEB -> LEC (which is pretty much right there) is really fast. Whalley and especially the Scott Road area would add a good 15 minutes or more.

No he is not.
Coquitlam to LEC is just under 30 km
Coquitlam to Whalley is 16 km
Coquitlam to the proposed arena site is 19 km

So no, not only is Langley not closer, it isn't even a competition.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

No he is not.
Coquitlam to LEC is just under 30 km
Coquitlam to Whalley is 16 km
Coquitlam to the proposed arena site is 19 km

So no, not only is Langley not closer, it isn't even a competition.

Ok I just looked it up and it isn't the entire story. Depends on the time. Though distance wise I do stand corrected.

Coquitlam to LEC according to Google is actually 24km (not 30km not sure where you're getting that from). When I looked this morning it said the time though was 23 minutes.
Coquitlam to the proposed arena site is 19km and it says 22 minutes from Coquitlam center.
That's a 1 minute difference.

Right now nearing rush hour though it is a different story. Coq -> LEC = 35 minutes, Coq -> Whalley/Arena = 22 minutes, so that's a 13 minute difference. Same distances, different traffic patterns.

So while the distance does look to be farther (I stand corrected) the time of travel ranges from basically the same to slightly longer during peak hour traffic.

I dunno I'd still rather see hockey and I don't live in Coquitlam so I don't actually care about anyone living there...

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Ok I just looked it up and it isn't the entire story. Depends on the time. Though distance wise I do stand corrected.

Coquitlam to LEC according to Google is actually 24km (not 30km not sure where you're getting that from). When I looked this morning it said the time though was 23 minutes.
Coquitlam to the proposed arena site is 19km and it says 22 minutes from Coquitlam center.
That's a 1 minute difference.

Right now nearing rush hour though it is a different story. Coq -> LEC = 35 minutes, Coq -> Whalley/Arena = 22 minutes, so that's a 13 minute difference. Same distances, different traffic patterns.

So while the distance does look to be farther (I stand corrected) the time of travel ranges from basically the same to slightly longer during peak hour traffic.

I dunno I'd still rather see hockey and I don't live in Coquitlam so I don't actually care about anyone living there...

According to google, the distance between Coquitlam and the proposed arena site is 18.6. Saying its 19 km is rounding up. The LEC and and Coquitlam Centre is 24.5. So actually that should be rounded up to 25, not rounded down to 24. (BTW the I said just under 30, not 30. I got that from the route that takes you over the Port Mann).

This doesn't even cover the fact that a large portion of the population in Coquitlam lives closer to Lougheed Mall. In fact, if you take the local lacrosse team's (Coquitlam's) home arena, the proposed arena site in Surrey is 12 km away. The distance from same to LEC is 25 km. That's more than twice as far. No amount of traffic, congestion, lights, construction, roadkill issues etc will change that.

Google travel times are wildy inaccurate skewed towards highway driving as their travel time estimates are based on things like speed limits. You make one light on a city street and the travel time estimate can be blown instantly.

[paulsparrow]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

According to google, the distance between Coquitlam and the proposed arena site is 18.6. Saying its 19 km is rounding up. The LEC and and Coquitlam Centre is 24.5. So actually that should be rounded up to 25, not rounded down to 24. (BTW the I said just under 30, not 30. I got that from the route that takes you over the Port Mann).

This doesn't even cover the fact that a large portion of the population in Coquitlam lives closer to Lougheed Mall. In fact, if you take the local lacrosse team's (Coquitlam's) home arena, the proposed arena site in Surrey is 12 km away. The distance from same to LEC is 25 km. That's more than twice as far. No amount of traffic, congestion, lights, construction, roadkill issues etc will change that.

Google travel times are wildy inaccurate skewed towards highway driving as their travel time estimates are based on things like speed limits. You make one light on a city street and the travel time estimate can be blown instantly.

Don't know why you are using mileage. When I drive places I look at time from door to door. I know I personally would much rather drive out a 4 lane highway and down a 3 lane road than to take a 1 or 2 lane congested light infested road to Central City or Bridgeview.

However you are entitled to go what ever direction you wish. I'm just speaking for those that actually live over in Coquitlam and go to the LEC.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by paulsparrow

Don't know why you are using mileage. When I drive places I look at time from door to door. I know I personally would much rather drive out a 4 lane highway and down a 3 lane road than to take a 1 or 2 lane congested light infested road to Central City or Bridgeview.

However you are entitled to go what ever direction you wish. I'm just speaking for those that actually live over in Coquitlam and go to the LEC.

I use mileage because that is the most reliable source for telling me how far away something is. I too would rather drive down a highway rather than a city road, however that still doesn't change the fact that the Surrey arena site is closer regardless of where in Coquitlam you begin your journey, or whether you measure by mileage or time door to door.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

According to google, the distance between Coquitlam and the proposed arena site is 18.6. Saying its 19 km is rounding up. The LEC and and Coquitlam Centre is 24.5. So actually that should be rounded up to 25, not rounded down to 24. (BTW the I said just under 30, not 30. I got that from the route that takes you over the Port Mann).

Let's not bicker about distance because I just punched in Coquitlam Center to the Arena spot and today Google says 17km. SO it's different than what it told me the first time and what it just told you.

I said I stood corrected so quite honestly, pound sand.

This doesn't even cover the fact that a large portion of the population in Coquitlam lives closer to Lougheed Mall. In fact, if you take the local lacrosse team's (Coquitlam's) home arena, the proposed arena site in Surrey is 12 km away. The distance from same to LEC is 25 km. That's more than twice as far. No amount of traffic, congestion, lights, construction, roadkill issues etc will change that.

*sigh* I'll take your word for it since the large portion of Coquitlam itself is closer to Coquitlam Center than Lougheed and Coquitlam doesn't seem to publish any population by neighborhood numbers so you're really just making the above up unless you can show me some stats to the contrary.

Google travel times are wildy inaccurate skewed towards highway driving as their travel time estimates are based on things like speed limits. You make one light on a city street and the travel time estimate can be blown instantly.

Really? Last I checked Google travel times are actually based on a lot of factors including actual travel times, current traffic, real-speed, and up-to-date information pulled from active Android devices traveling the route in addition to simple speed limits. Case and point, my Garmin says it should take me 45 minutes to drive from my house to my work every day because it follows speed limits and the SFPR is 80. But everyone drives 100+ and my Android Phone aka Google says it should take me about 31 minutes. It on average takes me between 28 and 32 minutes so Google is far more accurate.

What makes Google not accurate overall is that it tells you travel time "now" aka with traffic. That means the travel time will change throughout the day. If you look up a route during rush hour it will give you a different travel time than if you look at it at say 2am on a Saturday morning. My Garmin however will always give you the same travel time because it only looks at speed limits (I don't pay for the traffic service).

And if you read my post I kind of pointed that out fairly clearly in my analysis referencing the potential error.

That said, I pretty clearly said I stood corrected on my claim it is closer to LEC so again some pounding and some sand.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

I use mileage because that is the most reliable source for telling me how far away something is. I too would rather drive down a highway rather than a city road, however that still doesn't change the fact that the Surrey arena site is closer regardless of where in Coquitlam you begin your journey, or whether you measure by mileage or time door to door.

Yah I think distance is meaningless though. Tsawwassen Ferries is about 19.5km away from the Steveston Highway Exit in Richmond (other side of the tunnel) but during the evening rush hour with traffic and a single lane, it takes longer to drive that than to go from the Tsawwassen Ferries to Port Kells which is 50km away.

So 19.5km is way closer than 50km, but being parked in 1 lane through the tunnel adds so much time during the rush hour you can do almost 30 more km in the same time.

Hell it takes just as long to drive from Guildford to the Grandview Highway exit on HWY1 (17km roughly) than to drive from the Grandview Highway exit to Granville Street (9km).

Personally I give more merit to time than distance because I don't give 2 shits if I have to drive 90km or 20km, if it will take me 30 minutes to drive both, that's all that matters. Time is by far worth more than gas. People don't get frustrated driving to the local grocery store because of distance, they get frustrated when they get stuck in construction traffic and it takes them 20 minutes longer to go 5 feet.

And all honestly, as a daily driver through Metro-Vancouver, the longer it takes to go shorter distances, the more frustrated I get and I feel every driver on the planet gets.

You'd be a heck of a lot more frustrated if it took you 45 minutes to drive 3km than if it took you 45 minutes to drive 20km.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Yah I think distance is meaningless though. Tsawwassen Ferries is about 19.5km away from the Steveston Highway Exit in Richmond (other side of the tunnel) but during the evening rush hour with traffic and a single lane, it takes longer to drive that than to go from the Tsawwassen Ferries to Port Kells which is 50km away.

So 19.5km is way closer than 50km, but being parked in 1 lane through the tunnel adds so much time during the rush hour you can do almost 30 more km in the same time.

Hell it takes just as long to drive from Guildford to the Grandview Highway exit on HWY1 (17km roughly) than to drive from the Grandview Highway exit to Granville Street (9km).

Personally I give more merit to time than distance because I don't give 2 shits if I have to drive 90km or 20km, if it will take me 30 minutes to drive both, that's all that matters. Time is by far worth more than gas. People don't get frustrated driving to the local grocery store because of distance, they get frustrated when they get stuck in construction traffic and it takes them 20 minutes longer to go 5 feet.

And all honestly, as a daily driver through Metro-Vancouver, the longer it takes to go shorter distances, the more frustrated I get and I feel every driver on the planet gets.

You'd be a heck of a lot more frustrated if it took you 45 minutes to drive 3km than if it took you 45 minutes to drive 20km.

Great points. However none of it changes the fact the proposed Surrey Arena site is closer to Coquitlam BOTH in distance as well in time.