DENVER | Main Development Thread #6

[CharlesCO]

So basically Colorado Center is expanding to become a larger version of itself as a dumpy theater, Dave and Busters, and offices floating on oceans of parking? Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that Colorado Boulevard proves time and time again what a horrible street it is.

[bunt_q]

Oh that makes sense. So we only need 2-to-1 parking ratios for residential by rail, for office commuters, we can get by with less. Logical.

[DownhomeDenver]

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

So basically Colorado Center is expanding to become a larger version of itself as a dumpy theater, Dave and Busters, and offices floating on oceans of parking? Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that Colorado Boulevard proves time and time again what a horrible street it is.

Hold on there bucko! LOL. That theater is far from dumpy! I kinda like the IMAX myself. Colorado Blvd isnt that bad of a street it's just been a planning and transportation coordination nightmare. What is unfortunate is that the retail situation is terribly bad at Colorado Center. I was hoping that they would've added more residential than office, but I guess office has a better rate of return. There's a retail storefront that has been empty FOR years! I think it was a restaurant back in the day and it never did well. The stand alone parking garage is rusting and falling apart and the remaining parking lot was an unmaintained nightmare. But again, residential in that area is cutoff from Colorado Center by expansive Colorado Blvd and the highway. I'm hoping that the pedestrian bridge will help in some way.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by RyanD

I think you might be looking at the residential component in the foreground?



I think the office tower is the one behind it where the parking footprint is the same size of the building. That's a lotta parking regardless.

Not so much compared to the nearly 6 spaces per 1000 sq. ft. that Geico was seeking for its 1,400 employees in 232,000 sq. ft. in Dallas/Richardson.

[J21bird]

Image courtesy Tryba.
I posted some additional renderings of the Colorado Center project to DUR.

On a side note, note sure why the DBJ claims this was an "Exclusive story" when this project was formally announced by the development team to the public today.


http://denverurbanreview.com/2015/06/colorado-center-project-to-break-ground/

[rds70]

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

So basically Colorado Center is expanding to become a larger version of itself as a dumpy theater, Dave and Busters, and offices floating on oceans of parking? Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that Colorado Boulevard proves time and time again what a horrible street it is.

People do realize that not everyone will be able to use transit to get to work or to this project. The parking ratios are relatively low compared to typical suburban standards, and all the surface parking will go away:



From the pedestrian perspective, parking will be out of sight behind retail uses.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by rds70

From the pedestrian perspective, parking will be out of sight behind retail uses.

Uh, except from the light rail station itself, which will be faced almost completely by parking lots.

If you want to make a place transit-oriented, you have to actually orient it to the transit. Looks like this development turned its back on it.

[rds70]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Uh, except from the light rail station itself, which will be faced almost completely by parking lots.

If you want to make a place transit-oriented, you have to actually orient it to the transit. Looks like this development turned its back on it.

Retail has been located directly across from the station and exactly where pedestrian will cross the street into the project. The existing parking structures were built years before a station was planned there.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Uh, except from the light rail station itself, which will be faced almost completely by parking lots.

I think Denver is achieving a happy medium. Especially aside from downtown with it's growing Fastracks access, the metro area is still auto-driven.

Some cities, like Phoenix may have growing urban desires but with Silicon Valley companies and others expanding into the area preferring as much as 4-5 parking spaces per 1,000 SF it become a Catch-22. Even State Farm's new 2 million SF complex with great light rail access has over 4 spaces per 1,000 SF.

How does Arlington County compare (to DC) for example?

[Octavian]

Originally Posted by rds70

Retail has been located directly across from the station and exactly where pedestrian will cross the street into the project. The existing parking structures were built years before a station was planned there.

I agree with this. Don't be haters.

[mr1138]

That rendering J21bird posted actually makes the place look pretty nice. There is a much larger version of it if you follow his link. Looks like they're going to wrap the one side of the parking garage with a facade of residential like Boulder's public parking garages. And I agree it would be best to embrace the train station, but as rds70 points out, that was an existing condition, and one that would be difficult to change. Sometimes that's just how things go.

When I was in Rome, my professor pointed out to me to "notice on almost every street, how there are elements of the landscape that are blatant violations of new-urbanist orthodoxy." And he was absolutely right. Charming streets with nothing but a blank wall along one side, train stations with very strange access points, etc. You can guess this is almost always some quirk of history. What matters is that with each revision the city is working toward something better than what was there before. I'd say this definitely hits those marks.

I ultimately see this station area becoming focused much more around Evans than Colorado. Maybe once this project is FINALLY done, some of the landowners to the south of the station (including possibly RTD) will get interested in doing their own redevelopments.

[Cirrus]

I'm not hating on incremental progress; this is as good as we could reasonably expect given most of the parking was there first. All well and good. We make whatever progress we can, wherever we can make it. Fine.

But let's not speak untruths about it. Saying that from the pedestrian perspective, parking will be out of sight behind retail uses is simply factually incorrect. If you're a pedestrian arriving by light rail, you're greeted by blocks of massive parking garages, only one out of three of which has retail lining.

I don't have a problem with this development. It's got good density. It's right for its location. It's as good as it can be. It's not the end of the world that the parking isn't out of sight, but facts are facts so let's not pretend that it is.

How does Arlington County compare (to DC) for example?

I'm trying to remember to not obnoxiously bring up DC examples for everything. But since you specifically asked, here are the entrances to Metro stations at Arlington TODs:
Rosslyn (planned redevelopment)
Ballston
Virginia Square
Clarendon
Courthouse
Pentagon City
Crystal City (planned redevelopment)

You can get more out of a subway than light rail, so it's not really fair to compare the density of those places to Denver TODs. But the fact that the neighborhoods are legitimately centered around the rail stations is a huge part of their success. These were every bit as suburban as Colorado Blvd before Metro.

Edit:
Oh, you asked how Arlington compares to DC, not how it compares to Denver. Downtown DC station entrances are on the ground floor of buildings, like this or this. In the neighborhoods the entrances are pretty similar to Arlington's, with a canopy over the escalators and a small plaza out front, like this or this. Above ground stations are a mix between similar plaza-fronting layouts like this and somewhat sparser ones like this. There are a few notorious suburban-layout stations, which tend to have big bus loops out front and much sparser development, like this and this (Arlington has one too), but near the center of the region they're the exception not the rule.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

...

I always forget how urban D.C is.. I need to get back out there to visit, it's been a while.

[Cirrus]

I have a guest room.

[DownhomeDenver]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I'm trying to remember to not obnoxiously bring up DC examples for everything.

You're not obnoxious. You're actually quite bright and articulate...however, I really can't stand the comparison of apples to oranges. It's like comparing Denver to NYC. Oh why why why can't we be like NYC!? DC has it's woes too.

As far as the Colorado Center there was supposed to be some retail fronting Colo Center Drive when people get off the light rail. Cirrus, you are correct about RTD and it's parking lot too. Maybe in time, RTD will redevelop the parking lot into a garage with something wrapped around it. However, this area in general sucks for connectivity to residents.

Streetscaping, pedestrian lighting, wayfinding signage, pretty little elements here and there will make the pedestrian experience so much better. The Tower 1 parking garage is to the far right when you get off the light rail. It's not even relevant to the pedestrian. However the tower 2 parking garage is and if Lincoln Property to can do more to camouflage it or enhance it then I really don't think it's as big as a deal breaker than the RTD parking lot of asphalt.

What really needs to happen--and maybe in the future it will--a developer should come in and buy up all the lots along Evans, Colorado Blvd and Colorado Center Dr so that would include the KFC, the retails shops along Evans, the storage center or Uhaul, then create a massive mixed used heavy on residential project right there with some height equal to one of the Colorado Center towers. Even if RTD didn't develop their lot, this would bring more people on the street, more people using light rail and more people shopping to enhance Colorado Center in such a way so that it can be a destination. **IF** that's what we really want for this little suburban enclave.

[denconyny]

Originally Posted by DownhomeDenver

You're not obnoxious. You're actually quite bright and articulate...however, I really can't stand the comparison of apples to oranges. It's like comparing Denver to NYC. Oh why why why can't we be like NYC!? DC has it's woes too.

As far as the Colorado Center there was supposed to be some retail fronting Colo Center Drive when people get off the light rail. Cirrus, you are correct about RTD and it's parking lot too. Maybe in time, RTD will redevelop the parking lot into a garage with something wrapped around it. However, this area in general sucks for connectivity to residents.

Streetscaping, pedestrian lighting, wayfinding signage, pretty little elements here and there will make the pedestrian experience so much better. The Tower 1 parking garage is to the far right when you get off the light rail. It's not even relevant to the pedestrian. However the tower 2 parking garage is and if Lincoln Property to can do more to camouflage it or enhance it then I really don't think it's as big as a deal breaker than the RTD parking lot of asphalt.

What really needs to happen--and maybe in the future it will--a developer should come in and buy up all the lots along Evans, Colorado Blvd and Colorado Center Dr so that would include the KFC, the retails shops along Evans, the storage center or Uhaul, then create a massive mixed used heavy on residential project right there with some height equal to one of the Colorado Center towers. Even if RTD didn't develop their lot, this would bring more people on the street, more people using light rail and more people shopping to enhance Colorado Center in such a way so that it can be a destination. **IF** that's what we really want for this little suburban enclave.

You are correct in all of this..... however, one thing.......

Originally Posted by DownhomeDenver

**IF** that's what we really want for this little suburban enclave.

Colorado Center is within the limits of the City and County of Denver, pretty much in the thick of things when looking at it geographically..... although maybe a bit south and east, it's yet nowhere near any edge of the city boundaries, and is in the midst of a lot of highrises, commercial activity, etc on its own. I don't think that it's quite appropriate being labeled a suburban enclave..... of course unless there's some irony/sarcasm here, in which case would be wholly accurate, since at present, as maybe insinuated, it is appearing as if it somehow can end up being a missed opportunity

[Scottk]

So the company I work for is moving to Meridian (shitty, I know) and I have been looking at apartments near the Lincoln station in Lone Tree.

Every apartment that I have looked at is either 3 or 4 story stick and around 1250 a month for a one bedroom.

I always thought that the complaints about stick builds were untrue, but after touring some of these places my opinion has changed. The finishes were nice (even luxurious) but none of the places I looked at had a high quality feel.

The soundproofing was bad, the floors would creak a little, and you could hear the upstairs neighbors walking around. There is no comparison to a steel or concrete build. I am convinced some of these places will become tenements.

As a side note, 1114 is really going to change the view of the skyline from that side of town. The four seasons already sticks out nicely. 1114 will look even better.

[Denverite]

Originally Posted by Scottk

So the company I work for is moving to Meridian (shitty, I know) and I have been looking at apartments near the Lincoln station in Lone Tree.

Every apartment that I have looked at is either 3 or 4 story stick and around 1250 a month for a one bedroom.

I always thought that the complaints about stick builds were untrue, but after touring some of these places my opinion has changed. The finishes were nice (even luxurious) but none of the places I looked at had a high quality feel.

The soundproofing was bad, the floors would creak a little, and you could hear the upstairs neighbors walking around. There is no comparison to a steel or concrete build. I am convinced some of these places will become tenements.

Yup.

Nice to see/read someone who experienced this first hand. I'm convinced this stick-built boom will come back to haunt us in a handful of ways in the not-so-distant future as they age and as people realize they don't want to pay 1/3 or more (around 40% now for a lot of people according to some stories) of their income on a cheap-feeling living space with creaky floors and the vibration of high winds and the sounds of the neighbor's surround sound playing the new Die Hard. Granted, the modern appliances, new feel and smell, and space may feel luxury now, but I think it won't be long before people revolt against this kind of product and wait for a single-family home to move into, or maybe a townhouse project. Clearly, some will be fine with it. I know I wouldn't.

Not starting a new rant on stick-built / high-priced condo problem I previously made, but appreciate the analysis of your experience.

[mojiferous]

Originally Posted by Scottk

The soundproofing was bad, the floors would creak a little, and you could hear the upstairs neighbors walking around. There is no comparison to a steel or concrete build. I am convinced some of these places will become tenements.

I dunno... this sounds more like a general issue with living amongst other people than an issue with materials.

In my experience concrete can act as an amplifier, just as much as wood frame can dampen sound. Just wait until your upstairs neighbor decides to install wood floors and take up what sounds like flamenco bowling and you'll realize that you need about 4 feet of concrete to not hear them. And the biggest issue is actually the walls, because no amount of drywall will keep out the sound of your neighbors parties, animalistic love-making sessions, or yelling-that-sounds-like-domestic-abuse-but-turns-out-to-be-online-video-games.

And because of high turnover I don't think the apartments will ever turn into "tenements" per se -- the companies that own them can and will switch out appliances and finishes to make sure they get the most money they can out of them, and most people will just put up with the sounds of their neighbors because they know they don't have to stay forever.

The stick-built condos on the other hand? Those are your future tenements. We rented a condo a while back in The Dakota on Central & 15th in Highland (which I believe was part of a class-action construction defect lawsuit). It was noisy, leaky, and falling apart. You could hear every neighbor, the whole place would shake when buses would pass, and in the winter you could feel cold air flowing in the crack between the wall and the floor. And this was after the exterior was redone because of the lawsuit. The owner actually said it was much worse before.

We had neighbors that scoffed at "renters" and refuse to talk to us, which would make us laugh because at least we weren't dumb enough to pay $500k+ for a 1 bedroom+office in a building with the structural integrity of the Tacoma Narrows.

At least when the apartments succumb to all of the stick-built corner cutting they can stop renewing leases and tear them down -- when those poorly-built condos fall apart you'll have to deal with the HOA, individual owners, and a billion other issues. They probably won't come down or be replaced until they actually collapse.

[Denverite]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

I dunno... this sounds more like a general issue with living amongst other people than an issue with materials.

In my experience concrete can act as an amplifier, just as much as wood frame can dampen sound. Just wait until your upstairs neighbor decides to install wood floors and take up what sounds like flamenco bowling and you'll realize that you need about 4 feet of concrete to not hear them.

Not really. I worked on during construction, worked in (my office), and lived in buildings with, approximately, 6" of concrete floors and there is very little sound travel unless you are really banging away - and I've never heard any "amplification" by concrete (I don't think that's actually possible) - it can conduct sound though, but the sound weakens with respect to distance. Sure, if you live in a wide open loft that has exposed brick walls, ceilings, duct work, etc. then your own voice will echo and reverberate enough at frequencies that can travel through adjacent units via thin walls and the duct work, but typically most people furnish their spaces with artwork, carpets and/or rugs, beds, furniture, etc. all of which dampen and absorb soundwaves. All bets are off if someone really cranks things up with a loud stereo or dozens of people in a party, but concrete will always outperform timber when it comes to soundproofing between floors. Let alone it will be physically stronger during weather events. A person is doomed when they get hit with even a small tornado or a fire in these 5-6 story stick structures. Scary and unsafe, IMO.

I have also lived in an apartment with bare hardwood flooring between units and that was awful for noise transmission - though the space itself was nice. High heels, kids tapping, playing with marbles, creaks from movement, almost any kind of TV or music, all that activity transferred through the floor much more with hardwood than with bare concrete. I also grew up in a 70s-built apartments, these were carpeted. Again, it was an uncomfortable and unpleasant experience.

When it comes to structures with concrete floors, the weak points are, as you mentioned, walls, and of course windows. Some walls are better than others. Having lived at Sherman Tower and Pennwood Place (concrete floors, drywall for common walls) I almost never heard anyone except for a guy who liked to go out on the balcony and scream bloody murder at 3:00 am once in awhile. Also, if someone has a loud boomer party, that sound will travel. Bass travels well in almost any situation.

These stick buildings are not such a bad product for young people who are trying to get off the ground, but the rent / purchase rates are so incredibly high for such crappy product. I don't see these as a real positive investment opportunity for people. Some may do better than others depending on location and construction quality, regardless of stick-built or not.

Speaking of which, the monstrosity of timber across from Moe's Bagels is... well, I think it's a little monolithic. That thing is huge. All timber above the first floor.

The reality is, the Denver market is overpriced given the cost of living, wage rates, and product quality. I realize it's dictated by demand, but it doesn't mean the price is worth it.

This issue is also fueling a whole other problem. Fewer people can afford to live in their own studio or 1-bedroom. Now, there are single-family homes that are being occupied by several sub-renters of bedrooms. It's happened to me next door. My HOA or Douglas County can't do anything about it even though it violates the Zoning Code. It sucks.