TriMet/Metro Southwest Corridor Planning (Portland to Bridgeport Village)

[colganc]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

Oh, I realize it wouldn't happen, for a variety of reasons. I just thought it made for an interesting conversation.

Rockcreek is bad as mentioned previously. Either one could move a chunk of their classes to the vacate OGI buildings and run shuttles from the small PCC campus at 185th.

Renovate and go. Wouldn't even need to build a new campus.

[hat]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

Absolutely.

In a perfect world, community colleges would be as close to the heart of the communities they serve, and they'd have excellent access to mass transit - especially light rail. That was a major point in the recent conversation that kept getting shouted down by one member recently. The discussion was about the cost of building a tunnel for MAX to reach PCC Sylvania, and whether that money could be more wisely spent by moving the school rather than building a tunnel. Does PCC Sylvania really have the best location in terms of serving students in SW? The fact that its campus is isolated clearly proves its location is removed from its community. In a perfect world, community colleges would be located in the communities they serve, and they'd have excellent access to mass transit - especially light rail.

PCC was my first college. I drove there because of its location. Eventually I started disliking driving and moved into the neighborhood. It's accessible but certainly not ideal. If a MAX had reached it, I would have sold my car. I agree that it's removed, oddly so.

I still think there is an easier solution than boring a hole through the mountain. PCC is worth it, but I don't think it's a good sell for transit. If you notice the land that PCC owns on the hill, G st and Lesser is within a few hundred meters of Barbur.

The past (and potential future) of PCC has been one of fairly rapid expansion. One solution to this has three parts: 1. a short cut-and-cover on Capitol Hwy at SW 6th, in tandom with 2. expansion at PCC's extreme West (at G and Lesser). With 3. bike share a fairly certain potential for next year (according to the city), docks at the West and East of campus might make a quarter mile walk into an awesome campus, one strangled by acres of parking lot.

I'm adding 4. student housing, to this. Cascade campus could use a lot more of this as well BTW. This entire plot of land is also owned by PCC.

[maccoinnich]

FFS. Looks like SW Corridor is going to take a surface route between downtown and Burlingame. So instead of having a station at one of the city's largest employers, it's going to run along a hillside that has zero TOD opportunity and a very limited number of residents within walking distance.

Southwest Corridor staff recommend dropping Marquam Hill/Hillsdale transit tunnels, delaying Sylvania tunnel decision



Staff working on the Southwest Corridor Plan recommend removing from further consideration transit tunnels beneath Marquam Hill and Hillsdale in efforts to improve transportation in the southwest part of the Portland metropolitan region.

In a draft report released today, planners from the project partners also recommend delaying a decision on whether to keep studying a tunnel to provide direct light rail service to Portland Community College's Sylvania campus, saying they need to do more technical work and community outreach before deciding whether that option is viable.

The recommendations will be considered by the Southwest Corridor Plan Steering Committee at its July 13 meeting. Southwest Corridor Plan staff are also seeking comments from the public via an online survey through June 26 and at an open house Wednesday, June 17 at Metro Regional Center.

...continues at Metro news.

[maccoinnich]

Here is the report [PDF]. Amongst the justifications for skipping OHSU is this:

The tunnel alignment would not provide direct access to the National College of Naturopathic Medicine,

Yes, lets skip the real medical school so that it can serve the one where the students are learning about herbalism.

[cityscapes]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

Here is the report [PDF]. Amongst the justifications for skipping OHSU is this:



Yes, lets skip the real medical school so that it can serve the one where the students are learning about herbalism.

You have got to be kidding me...

They really need to think big with this project. I drive on 99W / Barbur and I-5 in SW on a daily basis and traffic is terrible. OHSU is there. PCC is there. There are a few places where TOD would work really well. The tunnel would be perfect here and it makes me angry that they would consider dropping the option. If Portland keeps growing if they go with a surface alignment that's going to be inadequate very quickly.

[babs]

Originally Posted by cityscapes

You have got to be kidding me...

They really need to think big with this project. I drive on 99W / Barbur and I-5 in SW on a daily basis and traffic is terrible. OHSU is there. PCC is there. There are a few places where TOD would work really well. The tunnel would be perfect here and it makes me angry that they would consider dropping the option. If Portland keeps growing if they go with a surface alignment that's going to be inadequate very quickly.

This group would not have built the current Max tunnel. Now imagine what the sunset would look like with a max line.

We will regret this decision. Where are the real leaders?

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

FFS. Looks like SW Corridor is going to take a surface route between downtown and Burlingame. So instead of having a station at one of the city's largest employers, it's going to run along a hillside that has zero TOD opportunity and a very limited number of residents within walking distance.



...continues at Metro news.

I would rather this line not be built if this is the kind of short sighted thinking we get. What's the point of a SW light rail line if there is no where along it for development to happen. Maybe we will get lucky and they will build a bunch of parking garages at each stop cause that is all that line would be good for.

[MarkDaMan]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

FFS. Looks like SW Corridor is going to take a surface route between downtown and Burlingame. So instead of having a station at one of the city's largest employers, it's going to run along a hillside that has zero TOD opportunity and a very limited number of residents within walking distance.

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I would rather this line not be built if this is the kind of short sighted thinking we get. What's the point of a SW light rail line if there is no where along it for development to happen. Maybe we will get lucky and they will build a bunch of parking garages at each stop cause that is all that line would be good for.

At one time the OHSU Tram was going to have a Barbur Blvd spur. Would be interesting if that could still be built and incorporated with a SW Corridor MAX line.

[hat]

Originally Posted by MarkDaMan

At one time the OHSU Tram was going to have a Barbur Blvd spur. Would be interesting if that could still be built and incorporated with a SW Corridor MAX line.

I think they're banking on a system of elevators and escalators. Mourning the OHSU tunnel already...

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

Here is the report [PDF]. Amongst the justifications for skipping OHSU is this:



Yes, lets skip the real medical school so that it can serve the one where the students are learning about herbalism.

Well, obviously the Metro's process is broken if it comes to this kind of a decision. Portland lacks leadership to put regional infrastructural developments where they need to be and to put the stations where they need to be.

Similar thing that happened with WES, the Green Line and the Orange MAX lines - always just a half mile too far away from the major destinations and activity centers.

Meanwhile, Seattle and Vancouver BC are building subways with projected ridership levels far, far higher than our MAX system will ever see.

Originally Posted by babs

We will regret this decision. Where are the real leaders?

What leaders?

Portland - a mediocre city.

---------------------

...Reading the Metro PDF, it seems that the principal reasoning behind not building a tunnel is to use the money for totally rebuilding Barbur with bike and pedestrian facilities and to spur infill development along Barbur.

So again, MAX used as a development tool and not considered a transportation system!

This is reminiscent of the way streetcars were used as development tools during the original boom years of Portland back in the late 19th century/early 20th century. Unfortunately, building transportation systems whose purpose isn't to actually... you know, move people... tend to fail.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by hat

I think they're banking on a system of elevators and escalators. Mourning the OHSU tunnel already...

The elevation difference is right around 250 feet between Barbur and OHSU... thats 25 floors worth of escalators, that will need to be completely weatherproof.

A good comparison is Hong Kong's hillside escalator system, but its only one-way and rises 440' tall. It takes roughly 20 minutes to traverse from top to bottom, and you travel 2,600' (half mile).

It cost $30 million to build with 1990 dollars, but costs ~$1 million annual maintenance(!), likely higher than a MAX tunnel station would cost. The project went far over budget and was considered a white elephant, as it did not reduce congestion.

So for a system half the height, like ours would be... lets assume $30 million x 2 (bi-directional), and today's dollars = $108 million, but this doesn't take into account the far higher inflation for construction costs, which is closer to double that.

So conservatively, lets put the cost of an escalator system at ~$250 million to access OHSU. It would also need to roughly 1/4 mile of horizontal traverse... which probably means a structure 25 stories high zigzagging up the hill to the bottom of Terwilliger, and a trip time of 10+ minutes from the station to OHSU.

[bvpcvm]

Would adding an infill station to the tram be out of the question?

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Portland lacks leadership to put regional infrastructural developments where they need to be and to put the stations where they need to be.

Similar thing that happened with WES, the Green Line and the Orange MAX lines - always just a half mile too far away from the major destinations and activity centers.

Absolutely.

I'd say the CL streetcar loop is another prime example. Look how busy the MAX stop at Lloyd Center is. It's always very busy. Look how irrelevant the closest streetcar stop to Lloyd Center is. I have a streetcar annual pass, so if I'm going to the mall, I take the streetcar. The stops nearest the mall are almost always dead. Why? ...because the streetcar stops are far enough away from the mall that people don't use the streetcar to get there. Poor planning.

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Reading the Metro PDF, it seems that the principal reasoning behind not building a tunnel is to use the money for totally rebuilding Barbur with bike and pedestrian facilities and to spur infill development along Barbur.

So again, MAX used as a development tool and not considered a transportation system!

This is reminiscent of the way streetcars were used as development tools during the original boom years of Portland back in the late 19th century/early 20th century. Unfortunately, building transportation systems whose purpose isn't to actually... you know, move people... tend to fail.

Absolutely.

Misplaced priorities lead to goals that are fundamentally flawed. Yes, we want to encourage development, but the number one goal of mass transit needs to be transit for the masses.

[zilfondel]

Just for the hell of it...

The dimension for an escalator system from a MAX transit stop at SW Gibbs and Barbur (southbound, so west side of street) is exactly 721' horizontal distance by 115' vertical elevation, which puts you at the corner of SW Campus Dr. and Terwilliger. This puts you at the bottom of OHSU, but at least it isn't a 250' tall structure. Each escalator run is ~150' in length, which seems a bit longish for an escalator. Here is a quick mockup of what a structure like this could look like. This assumes small 30' x 30' escalator 'stations' that allow the structure to zig zag up the hill, although the route I chose is mostly a straight, gentle slope. The lower station is right in front of the Jewish synagogue.










....aaaaaaand I should probably get back to work.

[hat]

Slip and slide on the weekends.

[zilfondel]

^ Escalators would probably have to be enclosed, right? I can't imagine our constant drizzle would be good on the machinrey.

I just don't see how an escalator system would pass ADA regs, wouldn't they need to build a bunch of elevators and flat ramps like they did down in South Waterfront? Which would be perhaps less expensive, but not going to handle very many people queuing up at several different elevators.

[cityscapes]

From the report:

Highest cost option. Provides direct access to Marquam Hill and Hillsdale via tunnel stations, but does not include a Lair Hill station, direct station access to South Waterfront or replacement of Barbur viaducts. Results
in a low increase in system trips and small travel time benefit relative to large cost differential in comparison to surface options. Results in high line ridership increases but mostly due to bus transfers traveling one stop to Marquam Hill. Has substantial construction impacts at portals and on Marquam Hill and in Hillsdale. Carries the most engineering risk.

Are they not considering the huge impacts that taking stairs / escalator / elevator from the station location up to the hill would have on the overall travel time of a potential riders commute?

Also:

The significant risks inherent in tunnel boring could add unanticipated cost and delay the project. The SW Barbur Boulevard and SW Naito Parkway surface options are viable alternatives that not only serve Marquam Hill, but also provide access to the South Portland and South Waterfront areas.

South Waterfront is mentioned multiple times as if it needs to be served by this line as well like it's some transit deprived area. There's going to be a MAX line there in September and they've had the bus and streetcar for a long time. It seems like they're using the line primarily as a redevelopment tool rather than rapid transit. It would be a transit line first and foremost, it's role as a catalyst for development in locations where it is appropriate should be a secondary consideration.

I wonder how OHSU and the VA Hospital feel about the staff recommendation to not serve the hill directly.

If the line was shortened due to the cost of the tunnel and went only to Tigard I don't think that would be particularly bad because that distance is about 9 miles and that's longer than many of the newer MAX line segments. Tualatin / Bridgeport could always come in as an extension.

I'd be interested to see how quickly a MAX train could make it up the curves and incline found on Barbur given that my car struggles with going up the hill every morning.

[zilfondel]

PSU -> OHSU -> Hillsdale -> Burlingame Fred Meyeer: 2.87 miles (straight shot)
PSU -> Burlingame Fred Meyer via barbur: 3.45 miles

[Encolpius]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

...it's going to run along a hillside that has zero TOD opportunity...

Originally Posted by urbanlife

What's the point of a SW light rail line if there is no where along it for development to happen.

Why zero TOD potential? I get that you both may be exaggerating slightly but I still don't really understand: why couldn't a new light rail line running through Lair Hill be a great catalyst for development there?

Without having read the PDF, from an urbanism standpoint I don't see how a new line along Barbur or Naito wouldn't be wonderful for that neighborhood, and a new pedestrian link to Marquam Hill via public escalator or tram station or whatever would be icing on the cake.

Originally Posted by cityscapes

Are they not considering the huge impacts that taking stairs / escalator / elevator from the station location up to the hill would have on the overall travel time of a potential riders commute?

Even if you tunnel under Marquam Hill, passengers will still need to use some kind of stairs/escalator/elevator to get to the surface.

Originally Posted by zilfondel

The dimension for an escalator system from a MAX transit stop at SW Gibbs and Barbur (southbound, so west side of street) is exactly 721' horizontal distance by 115' vertical elevation, which puts you at the corner of SW Campus Dr. and Terwilliger. This puts you at the bottom of OHSU, but at least it isn't a 250' tall structure. Each escalator run is ~150' in length, which seems a bit longish for an escalator.

This seems like a relatively easy problem compared to your typical subway station. To give an example from where I live, London's stations typically have platforms that are around 100 m (328 feet) below the surface. If I get off the Jubilee Line at Waterloo, I need to take three or four flights of escalators to get to the surface.

Originally Posted by zilfondel

A good comparison is Hong Kong's hillside escalator system, but its only one-way and rises 440' tall. It takes roughly 20 minutes to traverse from top to bottom, and you travel 2,600' (half mile).

Absolutely, though obviously that's a far grander project (in total) than what's required to get to the top of Marquam Hill. The engineers could also look at the central Italian region of Umbria. Most of the population centers sit atop hills but the rail and highway networks run through the valleys, so every town has had to come up with a network of stairs, ramps, elevators, escalators, shuttles, funiculars and/or cable cars to get people from the train station to the heart of the old city. Marquam Hill would seem like a cakewalk to the engineers who designed the funiculars in Orvieto or Perugia.

The most elegant solution would seem to be adding a Barbur Blvd. spur to the aerial tram. Be great if they could manage that.

[maccoinnich]

Originally Posted by Encolpius

Why zero TOD potential? I get that you both may be exaggerating slightly but I still don't really understand: why couldn't a new light rail line running through Lair Hill be a great catalyst for development there?

If I'm exaggerating it's only by a tiny amount. The land within the walk shed along inner SW Barbur is very steep, and is mostly zoned as open space or as low density residential. Much of it also has environmental conservation or protection overlays, which make development difficult to impossible.

Given that's it's comparatively flat, the Lair Hill neighborhood might at first glance look like it would be suitable for development, but that leads to the question of why there isn't lots of development going on there now, given that it already has pretty good bus service and is within easy walking / cycling distance of downtown. Well, the answer is that most of it is in the South Portland historic district. An apartment building that was proposed on SW Barbur & 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 appears to have died, likely because the Historic Landmarks Commission made it very clear that they had no intention of approving it.

These are mostly zoning issues, and the Zoning Code can of course be changed; Amanda Fritz didn't bring it down from Mt Tabor on stone tablets. But I seriously doubt that neighborhood has an appetite for substantial up zoning.