YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[casper]

Originally Posted by deasine

The "new configuration" is the HD configuration. The 787 seats in Y are practically no different than the new 777s (only in W and J that they are much better).

The two problems with the HD configuration is the 3-4-3 instead of 3-3-3. Most airlines are going to 3-4-3 so I think that is a given. The other problem is the lack of washrooms. Hopefully there is something that can be done there.

The J cabin on the HD is also not as nice as the rest of the fleet.

Originally Posted by deasine

Security/customs breach today. Can we say "TWOV?"
http://bc.ctvnews.ca/yvr-security-breach-beijing-air-canada-passengers-skip-customs-1.2412182

I know someone who had this happen to them with CP years ago in the "old terminal 1" in Toronto. Probably has happened in Vancouver before. Will likely happen again in the future. Your dependent on people setting up the swing gates correctly.

[CareerShow]

Why doesn't Delta fly Atlanta-Vancouver daily in the summer and at least a few times in the winter? Surely there is enough traffic. Also is United returning with the service to Washington Dulles?

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by CareerShow

Why doesn't Delta fly Atlanta-Vancouver daily in the summer and at least a few times in the winter? Surely there is enough traffic. Also is United returning with the service to Washington Dulles?

Given the size of their operation in Atlanta, it is a bit surprising that Delta can't support a year-round non-stop. But you can be sure they've looked at passenger patterns, crunched the numbers and decided that their metal would be more profitably deployed on other routes. Atlanta is a bit of a detour for flights to Europe or Asia -- or even the US Midwest or Northeast -- and they're not as strong as AA in Latin America. It probably makes the most sense to funnel passengers via their Seattle hub.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by casper

The story I was told is those HD aircraft were being built for another low cost airlines (Virgin xxx of some sort) and the decision was made not to launch the airline. Since they were already into the manufacturing process Air Canada was able to get a real good deal on buying them but could not change the layout as most of the long lead time items were already on order. Those aircraft are a bit of a compromise.

They announced they are going to 3-4-3 when they do the mid-life refurbishment on the existing 777 as well as installing the same business class seats as the 787. I would not be surprised if the density of the HD becomes less especially if they upgrade the business cabin.

AC got excellent prices on some 77W as compensation for 787 delays and poor 787 performance vs design performance. Initial plan from AC was to have the five 77Ws into a second LCC (different from rouge) that was to be joint ventured with Virgin Atlantic. The plan was something like Virgin Canada; based in YVR flying the TPAC in high density configuration. The joint venture aspect of the plan didn't work out, but the 77Ws were well along the path to delivery. AC went ahead with the high density 77Ws and slightly altered the mission to include YUL-CDG in addition to YVR-HKG and YVR-LHR.

As for cabin refurbishment, the 5 (soon to be 7) 77P airplanes will be fitted with new Business Class cabin that is going into all 77W airplanes, however the Business cabin will be smaller than standard 77W. All standard 77W get new Business class seats, plus new 21 seat premium economy cabin, and 3-4-3 layout in economy. Lavs in the standard 77W will stay the same as will number of Business class seats. Because the lavs and number of Business class seats are not changing, the standard 77W seat count will be about 400 while the 77P (high density) seat count remains at about 450.

The 77W cabin will get the 787 colour scheme and interior furnishings.

At the same time as 77W cabin refurbishment, the 333 fleet gets smaller Business Class Cabin (rear mini cabin is removed) and 21 premium economy seats installed. All other aspects of the 333 fleet remain the same.

[CareerShow]

Will they change the business class on the current HD 777 to the 787 Business class seats? The current seats are terrible.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by CareerShow

Will they change the business class on the current HD 777 to the 787 Business class seats? The current seats are terrible.

Yes HD 77W get new business class, however the number of business class seats will be less than standard post refurbished 77W.

The interesting situation, the current HD 77W Business Class seats are same as those on Swiss. The Swiss seats get much higher reviews than AC version, although exactly the same seat.

[SFUVancouver]

The thing about the 777 in a high density 3-4-3 configuration is that the width of the plane can comfortably accommodate that.

I don't think the cabin width of the 777 is frequently appreciated. It is 5.87m (5.97m for the 777X).

By way of comparison for the Boeing wide-body family, the 787 has a cabin width of 5.49 m; the 767 4.72 m; and the 747 a colossal 6.13 m(!). For Airbus, the A330 & A340 family share a 5.28 m cabin width; the A350 5.61 m; and, like the 747, the A380 has a colossal 6.54 m on the main deck and a still very respectable 5.80 m for the upper deck.

Bottom line, the 777 is half a metre wider than its A330/A340 competitors and a quarter of a metre wider than the "eXtra Wide Body" A350 XWB.

[Alpine]

Why does YVR rarely get 77W's, and never get 747-8i's or A380s?

AC3 (Narita), AC25 (Shanghai), AC29 (Beijing), AC63 (Seoul) all use 787-8 aircraft.

Air Canada's only intercontinental destinations from YVR that don't use 787's are AC854, AC7 and AC33. The first two flights serve London and Hong Kong, massive hubs for YVR; and the third originates from YYZ requiring a 77L.

Except for AC7, all of these flights have used either a 767-300ER, an A330-300 or an A340-300 at some time in the past.

LH493 uses Lufthansa's dinosaur 747-400s, previously A340-600s. We don't get those brand spanking new 747-8is.

JAL used to have 2x 747-400s (JL11, JL17), but after bankruptcy and the Great East Japan Earthquake, it's been 787s all the way down. (JAL, ANA and of course AC)

China Eastern uses A330s. China Southern uses 787s, previously 777-200s. KLM uses A330s, previously MD-11s.

However, BA uses 747-400s and Air China uses 777-300ERs. Cathay mixes it up with 747-400s and 777-300ERs. KLM is switching to 787-9s on KL682, but I would kill to see a 747-8i or an A380 in passenger service at YVR. Or an expansion in 77W flights. I remember AC003 used to be a 77W. Maybe CA992 on a 748-8i? Does YVR even have the passenger demand for such aircraft?

[CareerShow]

Firstly AC switches to a 777W for the summer months on the YVR PEK route. YVR Sydney was a 777W last Winter. Cathay goes 2 Daily 777W to Hong Kong. Philippine airlines sends a 777W at least 4 times a week. BA may switch to a 777W with the retirements of there 747.

[CareerShow]

Originally Posted by Cage

Yes HD 77W get new business class, however the number of business class seats will be less than standard post refurbished 77W.

The interesting situation, the current HD 77W Business Class seats are same as those on Swiss. The Swiss seats get much higher reviews than AC version, although exactly the same seat.

Not having direct isle access really degrades from the business class seats.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Cage

Yes HD 77W get new business class, however the number of business class seats will be less than standard post refurbished 77W.

The interesting situation, the current HD 77W Business Class seats are same as those on Swiss. The Swiss seats get much higher reviews than AC version, although exactly the same seat.

I always find this funny as well, but I think we have to keep in mind what the last generation of J seats on Europe carriers are versus the last generation of ACs seats. As CareerShow mentioned, not having direct aisle access having to climb over another passenger for some seats is really a big sticking point.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by CareerShow

Not having direct isle access really degrades from the business class seats.

8 seats on the 77HD do not have direct aisle access, the other 28 seats do have direct aisle access. Direct aisle access is not that big a detraction on the 77HD.

The other bone of contention for most is that only 6 seats have no neighbour. These seats are the most coveted places on the airplane, consequently these 6 seats are blocked from Aeroplan award redemption and upgrades.

Third contentious aspect of the seats is the foot room on flat bed setting is very narrow. For taller people the narrow foot hole is troublesome.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Alpine

Why does YVR rarely get 77W's, and never get 747-8i's or A380s?

Lack of A380 is directly related to lack of EK (Emirates) access to YVR.

Lack of 748i is directly related to LH services in F and C (business class) under performing in the Canadian market. LH uses the 748i in markets that have large numbers of paid F and C class passengers. If LH also needs more economy class pax they send 380.

The 748i and 380 are also utilized out of FRA where there is all ready services from both MUC and FRA. In YVR case, there is summer service to both FRA and MUC. The next step is for AC to enter the YVR-FRA market. Once there is multiple daily flights to a combined FRA and MUC, then LH puts on either the 748 or 380.

[CareerShow]

Originally Posted by Cage

8 seats on the 77HD do not have direct aisle access, the other 28 seats do have direct aisle access. Direct aisle access is not that big a detraction on the 77HD.

The other bone of contention for most is that only 6 seats have no neighbour. These seats are the most coveted places on the airplane, consequently these 6 seats are blocked from Aeroplan award redemption and upgrades.

Third contentious aspect of the seats is the foot room on flat bed setting is very narrow. For taller people the narrow foot hole is troublesome.

Of those 28 seats however, many of them have the problem of people stepping over the other person to get into the isle, which can be a massive annoyance. Also, the seats are too short when fully outstretched, and are to low to the ground.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Cage

Lack of A380 is directly related to lack of EK (Emirates) access to YVR.

Lack of 748i is directly related to LH services in F and C (business class) under performing in the Canadian market. LH uses the 748i in markets that have large numbers of paid F and C class passengers. If LH also needs more economy class pax they send 380.

The 748i and 380 are also utilized out of FRA where there is all ready services from both MUC and FRA. In YVR case, there is summer service to both FRA and MUC. The next step is for AC to enter the YVR-FRA market. Once there is multiple daily flights to a combined FRA and MUC, then LH puts on either the 748 or 380.

Cage, thanks for dropping by the YVR thread, good to have another knowledgeable voice in here.

Interesting that the 380 is put on when they need more economy not paid F&C (assuming this is LHs equivalent of AC-J?), as I always assumed the 380 was used on heavy paid first class routes. Given that YVR is traditionally not a huge paid first market would it then have a better chance of seeing a LH 380 than a 748i?

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Cage, thanks for dropping by the YVR thread, good to have another knowledgeable voice in here.

Interesting that the 380 is put on when they need more economy not paid F&C (assuming this is LHs equivalent of AC-J?), as I always assumed the 380 was used on heavy paid first class routes. Given that YVR is traditionally not a huge paid first market would it then have a better chance of seeing a LH 380 than a 748i?

Yes... Love to have more knowledgable voices with productive discussion.

I'll throw in my two cents.

Most airlines that operate the really big birds are just too premium heavy for YVR and really for most cities in Canada. There actually is a pretty decent premium market from YVR as indicated lately by a lot of the fleet shuffling... But yes I agree not big enough to support A380 or B748 ops.

Having said that I'll be on another A380 very soon!

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Most airlines that operate the really big birds are just too premium heavy for YVR and really for most cities in Canada.

I suppose this is pretty clear by how few you see here at YYZ as well. Of course EK does, and I think I've seen BA 380 here too, but that's about it.

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Having said that I'll be on another A380 very soon!

Too bad it's not on its way to YVR.

[LeftCoaster]

Hmm after all that I just found this video on Youtube:

• Video Link

Guess they aren't running them anymore?

[casper]

Originally Posted by Cage

....
The interesting situation, the current HD 77W Business Class seats are same as those on Swiss. The Swiss seats get much higher reviews than AC version, although exactly the same seat.

I think it is also a function of who is making the comment and where they are coming from.

The average Air Canada business class passenger probably flies AC regularly. The HD business class is a step down from the rest of the wide body fleet.

If the case of Swiss, the average Swiss passenger probably found that cabin a step up from what they were use to. It is clearly better that the pre-pod business class on AC/CP.

I don't fly to Asia that much any more. When I did I use to love flying the AC - A330. That had such an over supply of business class seats that I could usually get an upgrade into business. I can see why there is are removing seats, that aircraft has the wrong ratio. They want mostly passengers paying for business class in those seats and not frequent flyers upgrading.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by CareerShow

BA may switch to a 777W with the retirements of there 747.

Considering that BA has during summer two daily flights, would it possible for them to consider going in the future for a daily summer A380, rather than twice a day 777W? I think BA is our only hope for seeing a A380 ever and Lufthansa for 747-8 (nice video find, Leftcoaster!).