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  #7561  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2015, 7:08 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
 
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This came in the mail today.

     
     
  #7562  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2015, 7:30 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
 
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^

So, if I'm interpreting this correctly, a new development would replace some existing structures south of the transit center but not replace the eyesore vacant lot north of the transit center.
     
     
  #7563  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2015, 7:31 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
This came in the mail today.

At first I thought this was for the corner of Camelback and Central. The big triangle lot. I would've hoped for something 8 stories there. This infact though looks like it's to the south of the tracks and station. If so. I LOVE this!

Is this an advertisement you got in the mail for condos? Or the developer submitting plans?
     
     
  #7564  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2015, 8:57 PM
ASU Diablo ASU Diablo is offline
 
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Hopefully not an issue or a sign of things to come! I really want to see this building get redeveloped!

Developers ask Phoenix for more time to buy, redevelop 'Psycho' Barrister building
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2015/06/01/developers-ask-phoenix-for-more-time-to-buy.html
     
     
  #7565  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2015, 9:11 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exit2lef View Post
^

So, if I'm interpreting this correctly, a new development would replace some existing structures south of the transit center but not replace the eyesore vacant lot north of the transit center.
the same developer submitted plans for a similar thing across central as well.
     
     
  #7566  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2015, 9:52 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
the same developer submitted plans for a similar thing across central as well.
Look like on the BMO parking lot is the other similar building?

Also, is that retail on the ground level facing the station?
     
     
  #7567  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2015, 10:34 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
 
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Yes. They sent about 20 pages of information that is going to go before a neighborhood meeting.
     
     
  #7568  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2015, 10:37 PM
dtnphx dtnphx is offline
 
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I think this is excellent news. I think with this development going in on partially vacant lots that close to Camelback and with light rail there, I think it bodes well for a signature project on the triangle. With the BMO building converting into apartments, this could a game changer.
     
     
  #7569  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2015, 10:53 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exit2lef View Post
^

So, if I'm interpreting this correctly, a new development would replace some existing structures south of the transit center but not replace the eyesore vacant lot north of the transit center.
What's the deal with that lot anyway? Is it owned by someone? Why didn't the city develop that into some sort of park/corner when they built the station? (like the Rural and Terrace Station, or Veterans and College Station)

Its a hideous eyesore on a fairly nice and prominent intersection.
     
     
  #7570  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2015, 11:02 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
What's the deal with that lot anyway? Is it owned by someone? Why didn't the city develop that into some sort of park/corner when they built the station? (like the Rural and Terrace Station, or Veterans and College Station)

Its a hideous eyesore on a fairly nice and prominent intersection.
Yea, does the city own that? With that shopping center being redeveloped, now these apartments, and the BMO conversation something nice could go there. I hope at least 8 stories and mixed use.
     
     
  #7571  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2015, 11:14 PM
combusean's Avatar
combusean combusean is offline
 
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The lot on the SWC corner of Camelback and Central was a dry cleaners that left extensive groundwater pollution, and there were other random small businesses (I seem to recall a gay bar) in that area too, maybe a smattering of derelict single family homes. They were all condemned and razed for urban renewal under the guise of light rail construction, to be RFP'd later.

There was like a 400' multi-tower high-rise proposal for that lot that never went anywhere. I want to say Reid Butler was the developer--maybe he bought the properties, maybe he didn't.
     
     
  #7572  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2015, 2:31 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
 
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Here are the two full project plans for both the west and east sides of Central/Pierson: Omninet West and East. FYI, the east side at least had been planned for a high-rise tower as of late last year. I posted the renderings somewhere on here, but can't find them any longer.

WEST: https://www.phoenix.gov/pddsite/Documents/Z-26-15n.pdf
EAST: https://www.phoenix.gov/pddsite/Documents/Z-27-15n.pdf

On one hand, I can't help but think that 5-story apartments lining Central is a bit of a letdown. Given that much higher residential projects have historically been built in the Midtown corridor, there's obviously precedent for taller construction that would fit the scale of the high-rise office towers that are scattered about. In Midtown, once you move a bit east or west, you hit (quite a few historic) single-family neighborhoods, who have and will fight height proposed close by. That means Central is essentially the only place where taller projects would be possible. In response to the article posted that asked "what will Central Phoenix look like?" with all these new apartments - I feel like the answer might be "exactly the same" if they're all maxing out at 5 stories. Midtown is a huge area to cover, and 4-5 projects of this height built miles away from each away won't add up to much of an impact on the street life.

On the other hand, this is the first project that is at least proposing the kind of commercial/retail space that will make any kind of potential impact even possible. While the other single-use lowrises are being built in the middle of single-use office structures, requiring residents to still do almost everything via their car, this project is adding urban retail space that is sorely lacking along Central/in Midtown. Even if the combination of all these 5-story apartments was enough to create some kind of critical mass, it means little if there is no infrastructure for walkable shopping, services, etc. With the light rail on Camelback adjacent, some infill/reuse projects nearby, and the potential of sites like the transit center lot, the potential apartment conversion on the SEC, and the Uptown Plaza renovation, there's potential for a decent-sized residential neighborhood to form alongside a successful urban retail center. That isn't occurring, and likely won't be for some time, near the other proposed developments.

I guess my point is that I think a lot of people are eager to accept these mediocre proposals because the prospect of filling in all of the vacant lots we've grown so tired of is exciting. I definitely understand that, and in a lot of cases, it doesn't matter that developers are proposing lowrises because either 1) the ideal height/density really isn't that much higher (like for a lot of the Roosevelt Row projects - 6/7 stories vs. 4/5 isn't a huge deal), or 2) the lowrises are at least replacing blight and providing a neighborhood with more potential to revitalize down the road (such as the somewhat crappy projects going up in Eastlake). But, for lots adjacent to the Central/Camelback intersection, a LRT station, and a park-and-ride transit center... is the most sustainable, ideal use of land 5-story apartments? Or, should 5-story apartments be built toward the east and west while that product is "hot," so that in 10 years, as the neighborhood gradually improves, the lot can be filled with a 15-story condo project?

For the time being, I'm not going to complain about this project considering the positive attributes it does have. But, I don't think this or the Muse project on McDowell/Central are ones that make the most of their respective locations, and I think we'll all be disappointed in a decade or two that they were built.

Last edited by Jjs5056; Jun 2, 2015 at 2:51 PM.
     
     
  #7573  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2015, 3:53 PM
dtnphx dtnphx is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
For the time being, I'm not going to complain about this project considering the positive attributes it does have. But, I don't think this or the Muse project on McDowell/Central are ones that make the most of their respective locations, and I think we'll all be disappointed in a decade or two that they were built.
http://pdf.leeazmail.com/pdfs/Paris.pdf

For the time being? How 'bout being pleased that two under performing lots are being developed with dense residential. That area will most likely never see a highrise again (except for the triangle). As the photo attached shows, Paris, the most visited city on the planet has mostly 4-5-6 buildings and some great high rises at the perimeter. As for us all being disappointed in 10 years, you go ahead and set that alarm for 2026 so we can be sad these were built in 2016.
     
     
  #7574  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2015, 4:05 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
 
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Not surprised to hear there are issues with the Barrister redevelopment - City RFP's have been nearly 100% unsuccessful in producing a finished project. Though, while I would love to see the Barrister building itself converted into apartments with retail to hopefully complement/encourage retail at Luhrs, I don't know that 6-story buildings that bring a grand total of just over over 100 units are best for the adjacent parcel.

----

New 4th Street Retail
There is a ton of activity happening near 4th St/Roosevelt. As posted, the 314 house was moved. I really hope that it is used for something really special, or at at the very least, something more active than a gallery used on First Fridays only. 4th Street could become one of the most continuous, active streets downtown beginning with the 314 house, followed by The Allery, Bliss/reBar, the potential retail at Roosevelt Point + its garage, the potential live/work spaces at Proxy, the live/work spaces just west at Skyline Lofts, and the retail along 4th and Fillmore (like the new restaurant). The Allery is a little bit of a disappointment for that house - it would've been great for it, the adjacent duplex, and the 314 building to all have become "rebars" for a nightlife cluster.

I imagine the Roosevelt Point retail space along its garage will be empty for quite some time, but the live/work spaces at Proxy should be successful given the high occupancy rate of all live/work space downtown. And, the corner retail space at 4th/Roosevelt at Roosevelt Point has been leased (someone mentioned this a while back, but I saw it confirmed on Facebook) -- anyone know what exactly is going in there?

The Triangle
With all that good stuff going down, the City couldn't help but be a buzzkill. The new triangle "pocket park" is an absolute disaster! Metal mushrooms (that are hideous now, and will be hideous AND dated in the not-so-distant future) on top of concrete... how exactly does that foster public gathering and interaction within the DESERT? It's literally as close to an oven as possible. All of the 'press' related to this triangle was always extremely vague, with renderings that made it impossible to tell what materials were being proposed, while buzz words like "pocket park" and "public space" and "solar shade structures" were thrown around as distractions. Nowhere was it described as an aluminum and concrete pedestrian oven.

The artist was even quoted as designing this with the purpose of the triangle becoming a gathering space/focal community point. It's a complete failure when it comes to being a functioning public space, but again, this isn't surprising, as anything the City has tried to manufacture in the name of urbanism has always been a bust. If money was limited, and/or vegetation not an option, then simply using permeable pavers, xeroscaping, and commissioning the design of a large sculpture that looked similar to the City's logo (the circular Phoenix bird) would have sufficed. Clean up the blighted triangle using sustainable materials, and create a sense of place through identifiable pieces of art that serve as a 'welcome' to downtown.

The funds wasted on this hideous, cheap, unusable project could have been used for large "Roosevelt Row" signage to define the area, for *protected* bike lanes which are not a part of this project nor ANY project per the transportation plan, for wayfinding kiosks, a large-scale digital kiosk, for burying as many of the power lines on the south side as possible, or -- put into a fund which local businesses could apply for a grant from to encourage storefront renovations, patios, etc. or which could be used on temporary solutions for the blighted lots that destroy any connectivity the neighborhood has.
     
     
  #7575  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2015, 4:19 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
 
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^^ How hard is it to just plant some grass and trees. Simple, Pretty, effective. The City has a multi-million dollar landscaping budget, how much could a pocket park cost.

Its amazing sometimes the level of absolute incompetence governments produce. ITs almost like they try to do a bad job.

I remember several years back in college talking to some guy from City of Tempe that said there was an idea bouncing around the council/planning office to remove the trees on mill to be more sustainable (read save water bill money). Luckily whoever came up with that bonehead idea didn't get their way.

Lots of ways to save money, landscaping is the least efficient way.
     
     
  #7576  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2015, 4:27 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtnphx View Post
http://pdf.leeazmail.com/pdfs/Paris.pdf

For the time being? How 'bout being pleased that two under performing lots are being developed with dense residential. That area will most likely never see a highrise again (except for the triangle). As the photo attached shows, Paris, the most visited city on the planet has mostly 4-5-6 buildings and some great high rises at the perimeter. As for us all being disappointed in 10 years, you go ahead and set that alarm for 2026 so we can be sad these were built in 2016.
I missed the part where Midtown Phoenix inherited the geography and built landscape of Paris. Paris' 4-5-6 story buildings are dense and greatly concentrated over a good-sized footprint, which allows the same kind of critical mass to be formed. The apartments being built in Midtown are all miles apart from each other, and Midtown is essentially a linear neighborhood along Central when it comes to the possibility of dense, residential development. If multiple 5-story projects were going to fill in Midtown between the 7's, there wouldn't be an issue. But, when you basically have 1-2 blocks worth of space to cram in population, it's better for the long-term that projects are built at greater heights to fit in more units.

I already said that there are plenty of good things about these projects. But, I don't think it's ridiculous on the *skyscraper forum* to be questioning whether 5-story cheap construction is ideal for lots near our mass transit system and most important urban intersections. I think everyone here knows concentrated midrises can create a good urban environment and that tall towers can cause dead zones sometimes... citing Paris isn't anything new. But, it doesn't consider the unique characteristics of Downtown and Midtown Phoenix. Dense, concentrated midrises will never form when historic neighborhoods border the only developable area. And, wanting a taller building fronting Central isn't exclusive of preferring the proposal over the current use of the site.

And, none of this means I'm right, regardless. It's just my opinion, and part of it is simply aesthetics and the want to see the Midtown skyline filled in with midrises. Maybe Midtown will be buzzin' with new retail establishments and pedestrian traffic from McDowell to Central once these 5-story apartments are built. That would be great. And, maybe people will love to see brown, stucco, 5-story, cheap construction apartments built in 2 different places across the street from each other? That's great, too.

Last edited by Jjs5056; Jun 2, 2015 at 4:53 PM.
     
     
  #7577  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2015, 4:30 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
^^ How hard is it to just plant some grass and trees. Simple, Pretty, effective. The City has a multi-million dollar landscaping budget, how much could a pocket park cost.

Its amazing sometimes the level of absolute incompetence governments produce. ITs almost like they try to do a bad job.

I remember several years back in college talking to some guy from City of Tempe that said there was an idea bouncing around the council/planning office to remove the trees on mill to be more sustainable (read save water bill money). Luckily whoever came up with that bonehead idea didn't get their way.

Lots of ways to save money, landscaping is the least efficient way.
I'm giving the City the benefit of the doubt and assumed that irrigating the triangle was not feasible financially. But, yes, even just permeable pavers and desert landscaping with desert shade trees would have been fine. The money that would have been saved could have been used for so many different purposes.

For your last point, while they haven't removed the trees, Tempe has replaced a great deal of the mature ones with a new species, which has really killed what was a perfect streetscape... at least this is a short-term problem. The oven triangle is here to stay.
     
     
  #7578  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2015, 7:58 PM
downtownphxguy12 downtownphxguy12 is offline
 
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the triangle is supposed to get trees and shrubs as well;

"In addition to the shade structures, the triangle will have trees and shrubs to keep the area cool."

http://downtowndevil.com/2014/02/27/55597/phoenix-roosevelt-row-shade-structures/
     
     
  #7579  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2015, 8:49 PM
dtnphx dtnphx is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post

And, none of this means I'm right, regardless. It's just my opinion, and part of it is simply aesthetics and the want to see the Midtown skyline filled in with midrises. Maybe Midtown will be buzzin' with new retail establishments and pedestrian traffic from McDowell to Central once these 5-story apartments are built. That would be great. And, maybe people will love to see brown, stucco, 5-story, cheap construction apartments built in 2 different places across the street from each other? That's great, too.
None of us are actually right and yes they are both opinions, but you barely allow the print to dry on something and you have picked apart any it's perceived value to shreds all the while presuming we should all agree with you that some uptopian Sim City version of something should be built on every damn parcel is tiresome. A simple, 'lets see how this pans out for a change, might be refreshing for a change.' Jeesh.
     
     
  #7580  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2015, 8:55 PM
azsunsurfer azsunsurfer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtnphx View Post
None of us are actually right and yes they are both opinions, but you barely allow the print to dry on something and you have picked apart any it's perceived value to shreds all the while presuming we should all agree with you that some uptopian Sim City version of something should be built on every damn parcel is tiresome. A simple, 'lets see how this pans out for a change, might be refreshing for a change.' Jeesh.
This^!
     
     
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