DENVER | Main Development Thread #6

[DenvertoLA]

So looking at the construction camera of 1601 Wewatta I notice that the areas for trees/plants in the plaza are all based with concrete. Any trees planted without the ability to grow their roots deep are going to be wimpy and provide little shade.

Is this normal practice for urban trees? Kinda seems dumb

[TakeFive]

I was one who enjoyed the original Elitch Gardens. My daughter grew up going there. Back in the 1970/80's I never gave it much thought; it was just a place to take her that she thoroughly enjoyed. Still, it was so nice with all its wonderful shade trees and older rides etc. Long, long time ago obviously.

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

I used to be one of the ones who defended Elitch's downtown location and had hoped they would stay there indefinitely. I still think there is plenty of other land to be developed in and near downtown.

That being said the amusement park that currently holds the name Elitch's is not even a shadow of what its namesake was. If we're thinking of "moving" it again lets just let it die.

I was right there with you in thinking that Elitch's should stay there forever. I viewed it as a wonderful amenity for the families and that having it downtown was "rad."

So much has changed so fast that the downtown density geeks are destined to have their way. Prolly best.

It would be nice as mr1138 suggests to keep a remnant of it either in place or move a few pieces nearby. I wonder if some of it couldn't go nearby to the Children's Museum or maybe to the new National Western development?

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Relocating Elitch's makes sense, but I think it's a bad idea at this time. ... Better to land bank the land as the amusement park than to settle for another 3500 Rockmont aka Westend Denver.

The land issue for Elitch's is a concern. The current park is 65 acres and, as mr1138 mentioned, that's too small for a park that needs to be a regional draw to be successful. Doubling the size of the park at the very least makes sense when it relocates and that means moving out to DIA if Denver wants to keep the park. Hell, put it next to Gaylord.

Whoever is pursuing this may not have any immediate development in mind. They may be land banking it, at least in the near term?

Is nobody here a futbol fan aka soccer? Maybe I'll have to drop the question on one of the sports blogs.

I don't know the extent of Kroenke's (aka Kroenke Sports Enterprises or KSE) and Anschutz (aka Anschutz Entertainment Group or AEG) partnership other than knowing they co-own the Rapids and I assume the soccer stadium.

Per Wikipedia Re: son Josh Kreonke

He is President and Governor of the Denver Nuggets basketball franchise, President and Governor of the Colorado Avalanche ice hockey franchise and Alternate Governor for the Colorado Rapids soccer franchise

Wouldn't surprise me if Kroenke was the purchaser of Elitch's. Regardless, KSE and/or AEG might have an interest in relocating an amusement park next to their existing soccer facilities if there's enough land?

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Hell, put it next to Gaylord.

Well Hell; it would make a nice addition to the growing aerotropolis.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Did you see that Lakewood landmarked Casa Bonita? That's amazing.

Dang, I missed that. Very cool.

I did catch Burl Rolett's nice article on the shopping center's resurgence and their Farmer's Market effort.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

So looking at the construction camera of 1601 Wewatta I notice that the areas for trees/plants in the plaza are all based with concrete. Any trees planted without the ability to grow their roots deep are going to be wimpy and provide little shade.

Is this normal practice for urban trees? Kinda seems dumb

It is when there's a parking garage directly underneath. Structure underneath= concrete planting boxes for trees.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by comoneymaker

Also I know six flags bought it a long time ago. Do they still own it or did someone buy it cause when I went to the six flags web site Denver was not on the map.

Elitches is now owned by Herschend Family Entertainment. Herschend also owns Dollywood and Silver Dollar City.

Herschend has been good for elitches for the most part. The real problem is that there is simply not enough space in the current location.

If you have ever visited Dollywood or Silver Dollar City, you know the kind of quality parks Herschend maintains

[rds70]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Did you see that Lakewood landmarked Casa Bonita? That's amazing.

To be clear, the Lakewood Historical Society designated it a landmark. The City did not. It has no governmental designation at any level (local, state, or federal).

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Wouldn't surprise me if Kroenke was the purchaser of Elitch's. Regardless, KSE and/or AEG might have an interest in relocating an amusement park next to their existing soccer facilities if there's enough land?

Not even close. There's about 70 open acres of space next to Dick's. That's precisely dick for an expanded amusement park. Now if Dick's used a large portion of the existing soccer fields for an amusement expansion you could get a 150 acre amusement facility....

[rds70]

Originally Posted by Scottk

Elitches is now owned by Herschend Family Entertainment. Herschend also owns Dollywood and Silver Dollar City.

Herschend has been good for elitches for the most part. The real problem is that there is simply not enough space in the current location.

If you have ever visited Dollywood or Silver Dollar City, you know the kind of quality parks Herschend maintains

No. It is owned by CNL Lifestyle Properties. From the HFE website:

Earlier today, it was announced that HFE’s management company (HFE) assumed day-to-day management of Elitch Gardens. HFE will oversee all operations of Elitch Gardens including supervising more than 1,500 full-time and seasonal employees. CNL Lifestyle Properties, Inc. remains the owner of the park.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Do we really have the demand around here for a massive regional amusement park? I mean, I hate to trot out the mountains argument... but we have a hell of a lot of things to do around here in the summer. Ohio does not. It seems like you'd need a lot more people to compete here, since folks might go once or twice per summer, mixed in with all the other things we do. Both mountains and city.

It's sort of like the analysis of an airport transit line. Everybody likes the idea, because they'll use it once per year. But once per year per person does not a facility sustain.

Coincidentally, this is also a great argument for why we shouldn't have a baseball team. Mountains = reason not to watch crappy baseball.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

If you need any other proof that Elitch's isn't worth saving just look a couple posts up where not only can someone with a straight face compare the current park to Lakeside.. but the only real argument to going downtown instead of Lakeside is the perceived criminal element of the patrons there.

I said that with a straight face, and I will say it again.

Lakeside, IMHO, is a slice of Americana. Sure, the place is neglected, but the atmosphere at night is unmatched. The art deco there is absolutely fantastic. So many classic amusement rides.... some that you can not find anywhere else on earth. The park has made some good progress recently (they did an amazing job restoring The Whip) and I would take the cyclone over any of the boring roller coasters at elitches.


As to bunt being afraid of lakeside.....


stop being so white

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by rds70

No. It is owned by CNL Lifestyle Properties. From the HFE website:

It's as if elitch gardens is the hot potato that no one wants.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Scottk

stop being so white

Should he start tanning?

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Coincidentally, this is also a great argument for why we shouldn't have a baseball team. Mountains = reason not to watch crappy baseball.

The Rockies were 10th last year in attendance. They're only slightly worse in the attendance rankings this year and in last place.

I meet a lot more people in Denver who don't ski (and really don't go to the mountains other than the token trip to Vail to grab an instagram shot) than I do people who haven't been to a Rockies game.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Coincidentally, this is also a great argument for why we shouldn't have a baseball team. Mountains = reason not to watch crappy baseball.

The fact that the ownership of the Rockies is the best we can do is far more compelling. The fact that so many people keep begging them to steal their money by going to games is just slightly less so.

[DenverPoke]

Some good ideas here, hopefully some of these come to fruition.

http://www.denverpost.com/politics/ci_28231965/denver-eyes-3-downtown-plans-boost-arts-complex

[wong21fr]

Getting the money lined up for the NWSS redo:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28235372/denver-officials-pitch-tax-vote-stock-show-plan

The plan would:

-Extend both the 1.75% lodging the the same rental car fee that is set to expire in 2023 and originally paid for the convention center expansion.
-Raise $476M for the NWSS re-do
-Raise $105M to expand the convention center

In addition, Denver plans to raise another $200M from land sales, federal grants, onsite inc. etc. and $117M from an RTA grant. CSU is chipping in $250M and the Stock Show is putting up $50M. So the $1B figure for the project has been somewhat fleshed out.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by rds70

To be clear, the Lakewood Historical Society designated it a landmark. The City did not. It has no governmental designation at any level (local, state, or federal).

Thanks you for the clarification, I did not know that, assumed it was a City designation. So that's nothing, then.

[JR_xox]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

So looking at the construction camera of 1601 Wewatta I notice that the areas for trees/plants in the plaza are all based with concrete. Any trees planted without the ability to grow their roots deep are going to be wimpy and provide little shade.

Is this normal practice for urban trees? Kinda seems dumb

This practice is normal, as Wong pointed out, where these planters will occur over a garage or capped basement space below.

It's definitely true that the trees planted at these locations will never become great examples of their species. Very little shade should be expected. These trees will be more ornamental in nature.

They have developed products however that facilitate the tree's root growth into more of a horizontal plane versus reaching downward. The one I know of is called Silva Cell. It's basically is a plastic latticework placed in the dirt between the concrete garage cap below and the sidewalk above that essentially keeps the soils from compressing under the weight of plaza sidewalks and keeps the soil from becoming overly dense, so that roots can grow easier (horizontally).

[pregersthehobo]

I can speak to the Kroenke questions as I have worked with them in the past and have a few friends there...

Rumor at KSE is that he has attempted to purchase Elitch's multiple times and has been rejected each time. He wants to scrape it and combine it into his Pepsi Center Master plan and the owners want to see the park live on. But that is just rumor.

Kroenke doesn't have any affiliation with AEG after purchasing the Rapids from him awhile back, especially after the L.A. Inglewood stadium kerfluffle. AEG is strongly opposed to his plan there and Kroenke is moving ahead anyway. Look at that development to get the gist of the Pepsi Center plan. Kroenke has been purchasing buildings along Auraria Parkway quietly for a few years now, Brooklyn's, Kacee, and a few others. If you look at records they are listed as TKG (The Kroenke Group), or any of the various LLCs with a 1000 Chopper Circle or Columbia Missouri address.

Anschutz has nothing to do with Dick's Sporting Goods Park, it's all KSE now. They will not do anything with those fields there as they make a killing with tournaments and other sports crap.

Sorry for the boring post, but thought I could give some insight.

Funny story, when Anschutz tried to purchase the Avs/Nugs/Pepsi Center package in the late 90's, he wanted to create the beta version of L.A. Live but lost the bid. Oh what could have been.

[DownhomeDenver]

Hey bunt, I got a question for you relating to the I-70 project. You are working on that project I believe?? So are there any plans to improve 270 with this project? The last time I went to a community meeting, a rep from CDOT told me that the state would do needed improvements to 270 to meet the demand of traffic from closed lanes on I-70, etc. Do you know if that's true and what improvements would be made? Thanks!