DENVER | Main Development Thread #6

[comoneymaker]

Originally Posted by DenverPoke

Heard something interesting today. Put in the rumor category, but I was told Elitch's will be moving and the property redeveloped. Denver is trying to find a way to keep it in the city limits, but apparently the current property is already under contract. Anyone else hearing similar?

Highly doubt it especially since they just spent millions on some new rides. If it happens I wouldn't think for a decade or so.

IF it did happen then two things. Best spot to move IMO would be out by DIA. Lots of land to build a real park and light rail lines and I-70 being redone....
Second what is the zoning there right now. Likely even if it is low to maybe rezone for some at least 20 story buildings ? Hoping for 30 ?....

[mr1138]

With the exception of the largest roller coasters, I think many of them are modular and could easily be moved. In fact I think many of the carnival-style rides were moved once before when the park moved downtown. They haven't really built anything since Mind Eraser that couldn't be disassembled (except maybe parts of the water park). Which is the park's biggest problem... they're basically out of room for many more large new coasters, which are the most important draw for this kind of park.

While I think this kind of move is ultimately inevitable (whether or not the current rumor is true), I do wish there were a way they could leave just a few things behind in a public-park setting. Presumably they'll still keep a significant chunk of the Platte River greenbelt as a public park. Perhaps the Twister coaster, carousel, Ferris Wheel, viewing tower, etc. could remain or find new homes in the park on a pay-by-the-ride arrangement. This kind of thing seems to work for places like the Tivoli gardens in Denmark and The Prater in Vienna. Throw in plenty of places for vendors to serve food and drink and it could be really fun and unique.

Unlikely I know, but I can dream can't I? As a theme park geek, I think that a move does need to happen. Denver deserves and could support something better than what we currently have, and there simply isn't enough room in the current location for it to be that kind of park (Worlds of Fun, Valley Fair, etc.). Elitch's is such a part of Denver's history though, I feel it would be nice to see some aspect of it saved.

[DenverPoke]

Originally Posted by mr1138

With the exception of the largest roller coasters, I think many of them are modular and could easily be moved. In fact I think many of the carnival-style rides were moved once before when the park moved downtown. They haven't really built anything since Mind Eraser that couldn't be disassembled (except maybe parts of the water park). Which is the park's biggest problem... they're basically out of room for many more large new coasters, which are the most important draw for this kind of park.

While I think this kind of move is ultimately inevitable (whether or not the current rumor is true), I do wish there were a way they could leave just a few things behind in a public-park setting. Presumably they'll still keep a significant chunk of the Platte River greenbelt as a public park. Perhaps the Twister coaster, carousel, Ferris Wheel, viewing tower, etc. could remain or find new homes in the park on a pay-by-the-ride arrangement. This kind of thing seems to work for places like the Tivoli gardens in Denmark and The Prater in Vienna. Throw in plenty of places for vendors to serve food and drink and it could be really fun and unique.

Unlikely I know, but I can dream can't I? As a theme park geek, I think that a move does need to happen. Denver deserves and could support something better than what we currently have, and there simply isn't enough room in the current location for it to be that kind of park (Worlds of Fun, Valley Fair, etc.). Elitch's is such a part of Denver's history though, I feel it would be nice to see some aspect of it saved.

I agree, I think it would be really awesome if a couple of rides are left behind and integrated into the future development. I trust my source and I'm pretty darn certain the property is under contract. I also think Elitch's will end up near DIA and expanded into something bigger and better (just a guess and hope).

[CherryCreek]

Elitches is a big chunk of land and would make tons of sense. I think it's even bigger than Riverfront. Any redevelopment also ought to include part of the Pepsi Center parking lots.

[DenverPoke]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

Elitches is a big chunk of land and would make tons of sense. I think it's even bigger than Riverfront. Any redevelopment also ought to include part of the Pepsi Center parking lots.

My dream...Kroenke and Anschutz team up to do something similar to LA Live. My Denver reality...a cluster of 5 story apartments that ignore the river and have tons of surface parking. :-)

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

That would be awesome. I would hope that it be zoned for very high density.

Isn't most of elitch gardens in a floodplain? And therefore undevelopable??

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Scottk

Isn't most of elitch gardens in a floodplain?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Scottk

And therefore undevelopable??

But no. They would just need to pull it out of the floodplain. The entire Riverfront Park area was, and is no longer, in the floodplain. Look at a map of the Pepsi Center, it's actually fascinating - the parking lots are all still in the floodplain. The floodplain boundary circles right around the arena.

You just have to engineer it, it's not a huge floodplain, assuming we're talking about the 100-year. That's also why we have Chatfield.

[Scottk]

I have always wondered why people love elitchs so much when lakeside is just a few miles away and so much better and cheaper

[bunt_q]

Because people like to not get knifed in the back on their Friday night out.

I do not understand this notion that Denver turns its back in the river. Maybe 29 years ago fine. But the entire Central Platte Valley has turned the river into a big playground. Is this some closet criticism of the river itself from folks who haven't come to terms with our trickle of bear piss? It is what it is - we're never going to have an oceanfront. But to therefore say we turn our backs on our adorable little stream, I simply disagree.

[comoneymaker]

Originally Posted by Scottk

I have always wondered why people love elitchs so much when lakeside is just a few miles away and so much better and cheaper

Don't forget they have all you can drink nights for like $15 or something lol.

Maybe Denver keeps the stock show and Aurora's Gaylord can have Elitches ? lol

Also I know six flags bought it a long time ago. Do they still own it or did someone buy it cause when I went to the six flags web site Denver was not on the map.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by comoneymaker

Maybe Denver keeps the stock show and Aurora's Gaylord can have Elitches ? lol

Also I know six flags bought it a long time ago. Do they still own it or did someone buy it cause when I went to the six flags web site Denver was not on the map.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/six-flags-elitches-part-of-312-million-sale

Originally Posted by mr1138

While I think this kind of move is ultimately inevitable (whether or not the current rumor is true), I do wish there were a way they could leave just a few things behind in a public-park setting. Presumably they'll still keep a significant chunk of the Platte River greenbelt as a public park. Perhaps the Twister coaster, carousel, Ferris Wheel, viewing tower, etc. could remain or find new homes in the park on a pay-by-the-ride arrangement. This kind of thing seems to work for places like the Tivoli gardens in Denmark and The Prater in Vienna. Throw in plenty of places for vendors to serve food and drink and it could be really fun and unique.

Unlikely I know, but I can dream can't I? As a theme park geek, I think that a move does need to happen. Denver deserves and could support something better than what we currently have, and there simply isn't enough room in the current location for it to be that kind of park (Worlds of Fun, Valley Fair, etc.). Elitch's is such a part of Denver's history though, I feel it would be nice to see some aspect of it saved.

So well stated.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by DenverPoke

My dream...Kroenke and Anschutz team up to do something similar to LA Live. My Denver reality...a cluster of 5 story apartments that ignore the river and have tons of surface parking. :-)

Speaking of Kroenke and Anschutz, is there enough land available where Dick's Sporting Goods Park is to accommodate a new Elitch Gardens?

[Brainpathology]

I used to be one of the ones who defended Elitch's downtown location and had hoped they would stay there indefinitely. I still think there is plenty of other land to be developed in and near downtown.

That being said the amusement park that currently holds the name Elitch's is not even a shadow of what its namesake was. If we're thinking of "moving" it again lets just let it die. What we have now is akin to forcing Casa Bonita to move into an abandoned Taco Bell (yeah yeah the food would be better at taco bell har har). Put your money and effort into supporting Water World, which actually does rate highly compared to other parks of it's kind in the nation.

If you need any other proof that Elitch's isn't worth saving just look a couple posts up where not only can someone with a straight face compare the current park to Lakeside.. but the only real argument to going downtown instead of Lakeside is the perceived criminal element of the patrons there.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

If we're thinking of "moving" it again lets just let it die. What we have now is akin to forcing Casa Bonita to move into an abandoned Taco Bell (yeah yeah the food would be better at taco bell har har).

Did you see that Lakewood landmarked Casa Bonita? That's amazing.

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Put your money and effort into supporting Water World, which actually does rate highly compared to other parks of it's kind in the nation.

This could be because water world is publicly owned and operated. Tax money flowing into facilities helps.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I do not understand this notion that Denver turns its back in the river. Maybe 29 years ago fine. But the entire Central Platte Valley has turned the river into a big playground. Is this some closet criticism of the river itself from folks who haven't come to terms with our trickle of bear piss? It is what it is - we're never going to have an oceanfront. But to therefore say we turn our backs on our adorable little stream, I simply disagree.

I completely agree. the last 30 years has shown us that, if anything, Denver has an taken an unprecedented turn to embrace it's river. Especially compared to cities like LA, KC, Cleveland that have made little progress on reclaiming their also-notoriously-neglected riverfronts. Riverfront Park, one of our most recent examples, certainly doesn't "turn its back on the river." The Greenways Foundation and others have set a very good precedent, and I would expect that anything done at the Elitch's site will also include a large public park. The park on the opposite side that houses the Aquarium and Children's museum certainly aren't going anywhere either.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

So well stated.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

That being said the amusement park that currently holds the name Elitch's is not even a shadow of what its namesake was. If we're thinking of "moving" it again lets just let it die. What we have now is akin to forcing Casa Bonita to move into an abandoned Taco Bell (yeah yeah the food would be better at taco bell har har). Put your money and effort into supporting Water World, which actually does rate highly compared to other parks of it's kind in the nation.

If you need any other proof that Elitch's isn't worth saving just look a couple posts up where not only can someone with a straight face compare the current park to Lakeside.. but the only real argument to going downtown instead of Lakeside is the perceived criminal element of the patrons there.

I'm too young to really remember the old Elitch's, but it seems as though everybody says basically the same thing about it. It had a collection of REAL old wooden coasters that was one of the best in the US. And actual gardens, not the asphalt wasteland of the current park. What we have now is basically a failing carnival. I would venture a guess that food/drink/midway games might pull in more revenue than ticket sales, but I can't say for sure. I'm not sure I agree we should just "let it die," but I think I made that point in my previous post.

But even at the old Elitch's, size was a real Achilles heal. Their old site, including the parking lot, was only about 30 Acres and aerial photos show the park to be quite compact as it was. Lakeside is even smaller. I'm not sure how large the current park is, but it can't be larger than 75 acres or so max. By comparison, Worlds of Fun in KC is almost 300 acres, Valley Fair outside Minneapolis is 125, Six Flags Over Texas is 213, etc... you get the idea. And all in locations where the price of land is DRAMATICALLY lower than what it must be in the Central Platte Valley. I just can't even see how the cost/benefit of expanding or staying in business makes sense in the long term. There's no way in my calculation that ticket sales (which are quite low compared to those other parks) can justify the value of that land. Which is why I think a move (or maybe not a move, but just a shutdown and creation of a new park elsewhere) is inevitable.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Did you see that Lakewood landmarked Casa Bonita? That's amazing.



This could be because water world is publicly owned and operated. Tax money flowing into facilities helps.

I did see that about Casa Bonita.. I think that's awesome.

Exactly right about Water World; I meant your money/effort referring to patrons.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

If you need any other proof that Elitch's isn't worth saving just look a couple posts up where not only can someone with a straight face compare the current park to Lakeside.. but the only real argument to going downtown instead of Lakeside is the perceived criminal element of the patrons there.

The straight face of that poster is suspect as they've also made some notable claims as that Boulder is denser than downtown Denver and more urban.

Lakeside is the cheap slut that you call up for a booty call that you know won't cost much. She's dirty and fun, but you wonder if this is the time you're going to be walking away with some VD.

Relocating Elitch's makes sense, but I think it's a bad idea at this time. Given how hot the rental markets are and what has gone up in nearby areas you'd be lucky to see a 6-story building there. Instead, it would be a sea of 4-5 story stick-built apartments in place of an urban amusement park. The demand that would see 20-story buildings and a vibrant urban district aka Portland's South Waterfront is a couple of decades away. Better to land bank the land as the amusement park than to settle for another 3500 Rockmont aka Westend Denver.

The land issue for Elitch's is a concern. The current park is 65 acres and, as mr1138 mentioned, that's too small for a park that needs to be a regional draw to be successful. Doubling the size of the park at the very least makes sense when it relocates and that means moving out to DIA if Denver wants to keep the park. Hell, put it next to Gaylord.

[corey]

I have been to Lakeside 100's of times because I love the Art Deco structures designed by famous architect Richard Crowther and amazing neon signs. Plus the trains are cool as hell. It is not the least bit dangerous. If you think it is dangerous than you haven't gone there. I have seen plenty of fights, thefts, and thug gay people at Elitches over the years. That crowd wouldn't go to Lakeside because they wouldn't think is cool. Denver is very lucky to have a park like Lakeside with its vintage rides. I wouldn't be opposed to moving Elitches if they replaced it with a park on the level of Cedar Point in Ohio.

[bunt_q]

Do we really have the demand around here for a massive regional amusement park? I mean, I hate to trot out the mountains argument... but we have a hell of a lot of things to do around here in the summer. Ohio does not. It seems like you'd need a lot more people to compete here, since folks might go once or twice per summer, mixed in with all the other things we do. Both mountains and city.

It's sort of like the analysis of an airport transit line. Everybody likes the idea, because they'll use it once per year. But once per year per person does not a facility sustain.

[corey]

Damn spell check! "Thuggy", not "thug gay".