Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[DKaz]

In the end, this just really reinforces the fact that we need parallel lines. A Skytrain line underground on Hastings. LRT on Arbutus. Heck remember that DMU proposal from Coquitlam through New West to Marine Drive Stn? Build that too.

But I don't see any of this happening in my lifetime.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by DKaz

In the end, this just really reinforces the fact that we need parallel lines. A Skytrain line underground on Hastings. LRT on Arbutus. Heck remember that DMU proposal from Coquitlam through New West to Marine Drive Stn? Build that too.

But I don't see any of this happening in my lifetime.

This reinforces how important SkyTrain is to the region. Accidents happen. However, Tranlink should learn from this and take all necessary steps to built in double or triple redundancy into the system wherever possible. Things like communications lines, communication equipment, controllers, computers, etc should have backups (that stuff is cheap anyway).

If anything this should be a good indicator that we should be investing more into existing lines and building new SkyTrain lines in the future (as city does not seem to be able to function without them).

[MIPS]

Things like communications lines, communication equipment, controllers, computers, etc should have backups (that stuff is cheap anyway).

All trains can operate manually. They've had a plan in place on how to run the system should poop hit the fan for the past 30 years. Why they keep refusing to use it when things are so dead in the water that it takes hours to get anything working again is going to give me an aneurysm.
You can only slap so much redundancy in any possible way into the transit system before it simply makes absolutely no sense WHY some things are getting so many redundant systems both for practical reasons and financially. More to the point, the Hastings Line would not of made today any better. Neither would a line on Arbutus.

[Sheba]

There would have still been problems, even if they ran the trains manually. They wouldn't have been able to run the train to / through Main due to the fire. There's a crossover track not far from Stadium Station so they could (and should) have done a downtown loop. But from the other direction the crossover is after Nanaimo Station, which is only two stops beyond Joyce - unless you think they should single track into / out of Commercial-Broadway, which would be chaos.

[officedweller]

It also depends on what type of communications those fibre optic cables served.

If, in addition to train control, they contained communications cables for the life safety systems for the stations (public address, fire, track intrusion, etc.),
then they would not have been able to safely use the stations.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by MIPS

All trains can operate manually. They've had a plan in place on how to run the system should poop hit the fan for the past 30 years. Why they keep refusing to use it when things are so dead in the water that it takes hours to get anything working again is going to give me an aneurysm.

Operating the trains manually still involves communication. With the communication out, running the train blind would still be slow and potentially dangerous.

The trains on the TTC used to require one person to drive and one person mid-train to make sure nobody was in the doors before closing them... and they did so by sticking their head out the window... something you can't do with the Skytrain. Assuming the doors were operated automatically still, you could potentially drive the trains manually as long as the switches were open , but you still need that communication required to ensure the trains don't ram into each other and the switch at waterfront would need to be operated manually.

This is just something that given the estimated time of repair, was decided the best option was to just take the segment out of service that the communication was dead on. That eliminates the potential problem of all the trains getting stuck on the dead tracks and having to get people out of them between stations.

[MIPS]

The trains on the TTC used to require one person to drive and one person mid-train to make sure nobody was in the doors before closing them... and they did so by sticking their head out the window... something you can't do with the Skytrain.

Right, I forgot about that. Back in day yonder all the stations had a mirror at the end of the platform that an operator could pull down from the ceiling and allow him to see if the doors were clear from his location inside the train. TransLink removed most of them years ago however you can still find one hidden above the far end of the inbound platform at Joyce.

Still, the option was out there and someone considered the logistics too risky. Bad move when you're still recovering form last years PR disaster.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by officedweller

It also depends on what type of communications those fibre optic cables served.

If, in addition to train control, they contained communications cables for the life safety systems for the stations (public address, fire, track intrusion, etc.),
then they would not have been able to safely use the stations.

My understanding is that the cable running in between the tracks for train control was not damaged, but all of the other communication systems went down.

That meant SkyTrain control had no control or visibility into:

• Station video camera feeds.
• Station emergency phones.
• Station emergency stop buttons.
• Station announcement system.
• Station-to-station phone network.
• Station elevators, escalators, lights, or entrance grilles.
• Station fire systems.
• Platform intrusion alarms.
• Platforms end guideway intrusion alarms.
• Power rail electrical status.
• Propulsion power substations.
• Positions of track switches.
• Possibly train intercom panels.
• Potentially the staff radio repeater (they definitely had radio issues the same night, not sure if it was related or not)

Also keep in mind that this happened while they already had single-tracking in place with crew and equipment in the guideway, parts of the guideway de-energized and some track switches blocked in certain positions (as dictated by safety requirements).
It's hard enough coordinating manual driving with everyone driving in the same direction. The logistics of coordinating manual driving in alternating directions over a single-tracking area (while having radio problems) would be astounding.

[WBC]

Still think that our transit is affordable? Check this out - 76$ USD for unlimited travel in and around Paris (roughly 4500 square miles)...Of course then you have to consider France's taxes to get the full picture...But something like that would be the first step to solving congestion issues - of course with increased taxes to provide increased service...

Broadening the city through a universal fare card
Yonah Freemark
The Transportation Politic
March 30, 2015
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2015/03/30/broadening-the-city-through-a-universal-fare-card/

What if it were possible to travel as much as you’d like by train or bus within Connecticut, from Stamford to New Haven, Hartford, New London, Waterbury, Danbury, Putnam, and hundreds of other towns, and then to travel within them, all on one transit fare card at the monthly price of just $76?

That’s what, in essence, will occur beginning in September in Île-de-France, the region that surrounds and includes Paris and which is practically the physical size of Connecticut—albeit far more populous and benefiting from a far more extensive transit system....

[Caliplanner1]

A case can be made that improved regional transit can help precipitate lower housing costs (at least over the short-term) as "distant" marginal residential areas are made more accessible to downtown Vancouver and other centers of employment!

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by dpogue

My understanding is that the cable running in between the tracks for train control was not damaged, but all of the other communication systems went down.

That meant SkyTrain control had no control or visibility into:

• Station video camera feeds.
• Station emergency phones.
• Station emergency stop buttons.
• Station announcement system.
• Station-to-station phone network.
• Station elevators, escalators, lights, or entrance grilles.
• Station fire systems.
• Platform intrusion alarms.
• Platforms end guideway intrusion alarms.
• Power rail electrical status.
• Propulsion power substations.
• Positions of track switches.
• Possibly train intercom panels.
• Potentially the staff radio repeater (they definitely had radio issues the same night, not sure if it was related or not)

Also keep in mind that this happened while they already had single-tracking in place with crew and equipment in the guideway, parts of the guideway de-energized and some track switches blocked in certain positions (as dictated by safety requirements).
It's hard enough coordinating manual driving with everyone driving in the same direction. The logistics of coordinating manual driving in alternating directions over a single-tracking area (while having radio problems) would be astounding.

Thanks!
That makes a lot of sense in explaining TransLink's response.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

A case can be made that improved regional transit can help precipitate lower housing costs (at least over the short-term) as "distant" marginal residential areas are made more accessible to downtown Vancouver and other centers of employment!

Granted, I only took first year economics, but I think it makes it more expensive. Making anything more attractive raises demand and raises price, unless you raise supply by more.

Prices are "low" in certain parts of metro Vancouver because they are a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 to get to. When they get easier to get to, they become more attractive places to live to more people. More people want to move there, so there is competition for those cheap places, which drive up prices.

It definitely helps people who live there already. People who bought in at low prices (thus have a fixed housing cost) but high travel costs, will get lower travel costs, and save money overall. But if they rent, they will now face competition in the form of people who want to move there.

Maybe the people now looking to move to a new transit area currently have high rents some place downtown, and are actually downgrading. But moving from a $1000/month tiny apartment to a $900/month larger apartment (that used to be $700/month before transit) isn't really freeing up income that can be disposed of in the economy, and actually more of GDP in the region is being dropped in housing than services.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Granted, I only took first year economics, but I think it makes it more expensive. Making anything more attractive raises demand and raises price, unless you raise supply by more.

Prices are "low" in certain parts of metro Vancouver because they are a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 to get to. When they get easier to get to, they become more attractive places to live to more people. More people want to move there, so there is competition for those cheap places, which drive up prices.

It definitely helps people who live there already. People who bought in at low prices (thus have a fixed housing cost) but high travel costs, will get lower travel costs, and save money overall. But if they rent, they will now face competition in the form of people who want to move there.

Maybe the people now looking to move to a new transit area currently have high rents some place downtown, and are actually downgrading. But moving from a $1000/month tiny apartment to a $900/month larger apartment (that used to be $700/month before transit) isn't really freeing up income that can be disposed of in the economy, and actually more of GDP in the region is being dropped in housing than services.

If and when a developer is willing to take a risk and buy the properties that my landlord owns to rezone it, that will be the end of cheap rentals in Metrotown (it's the eastern-most group of apartment buildings that haven't been redeveloped/rezoned yet.) Looking at rental sites shows that there is nothing less than twice the about I'm currently paying.

Where would I have to move to pay the same amount I'm paying now? I'd have to move to Central Burnaby and FAR away from the Skytrain. Or 128th street and 96 Ave in Surrey. The closest to Skytrain is one place in New West several blocks from New Westminster station.

See the problem is that apartment buildings right now are targets for redevelopment, so there is high pressure on the rental stock all across Metro Vancouver that is near transit. If you can live near transit and don't need a car, that cost differential is being reflected in the rental rates where the rentals closest to skytrain are three times higher than places that have no transit access.

[CanSpice]

If Vancouver further develops the False Creek Flats area, including the new St. Paul's Hospital, does anybody think there'd be a push to get a new SkyTrain station between Main Street and Commercial/Broadway? I'm thinking somewhere near the end of Terminal, before it becomes the bridge up to East 1st?

[officedweller]

Yeah, that would make sense to me.

[GlassCity]

There are many places I'd like to see stations appear on the Expo Line, but I worry about the added travel time. That's why I'm not all that excited about the infill Capstan Way station in Richmond. If the Expo Line was extended into Langley, it would take 59 minutes to get to Waterfront. I've always envisioned lots of infill stations being built once we get a parallel RER line, but that's obviously a pipe dream for the foreseeable future.

[djh]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

If Vancouver further develops the False Creek Flats area, including the new St. Paul's Hospital, does anybody think there'd be a push to get a new SkyTrain station between Main Street and Commercial/Broadway? I'm thinking somewhere near the end of Terminal, before it becomes the bridge up to East 1st?

That would be amazing - I always find it such a pain to get to the Home Depot/Moes/FX Building area. Just too far and too awkward to reach from either Main Street station or VCC station.

However, I don't think there's any precedent along the Millennium or Expo line for adding stations post-launch. Would this even be possible?

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by djh

That would be amazing - I always find it such a pain to get to the Home Depot/Moes/FX Building area. Just too far and too awkward to reach from either Main Street station or VCC station.

However, I don't think there's any precedent along the Millennium or Expo line for adding stations post-launch. Would this even be possible?

Lake City Way Station was opened over a year after the Millennium Line opened its Phase II (all the way to Commercial/Broadway). And there's a roughed-roughed-in station between Columbia and Sapperton (the mythical "Woodlands Station") that's not much more than a straight section of track.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by djh

That would be amazing - I always find it such a pain to get to the Home Depot/Moes/FX Building area. Just too far and too awkward to reach from either Main Street station or VCC station.

However, I don't think there's any precedent along the Millennium or Expo line for adding stations post-launch. Would this even be possible?

It would certainly be possible. It's just a lot more expensive because you would need to have a single-track segment bypassing the work until it's finished, which could be several months if ill planned. If there are no switches around that point, then most trains also have to be turned back before reaching that point and just shuttling past the construction on the other track.

Like there was supposed to be a "BC Tel" station at one point as well, but never happened. Likewise Burnaby lost out on a skytrain station on the evergreen line because they ho-hummed about paying for roughing in that space. (See a pattern of Burnaby saying No?)

So any "new" additions that weren't roughed in would require demolishing the concrete and rail segment (thus single-tracking for a few days,) but in a sense, they could also replace it over-night (look how quickly the evergreen line concrete segments were placed.)

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by djh

That would be amazing - I always find it such a pain to get to the Home Depot/Moes/FX Building area. Just too far and too awkward to reach from either Main Street station or VCC station.

Really? I did a quick check on google maps and from either Main or VCC station it's a 14 min walk to Terminal and Cottrell St (basically the driveway in). From either station you can take a bus that would cut your walking time to at least half that.

Originally Posted by CanSpice

And there's a roughed-roughed-in station between Columbia and Sapperton (the mythical "Woodlands Station") that's not much more than a straight section of track.

That's roughly at McBride and Columbia, where the tracks come out of the tunnel. I would hope they finally get around to building that station during my lifetime. One of the reasons they didn't was due to lack of development in the area - that isn't the case now.