SkyCity Centre Winnipeg | 45F | 575 Ft | 175.26 M | Cancelled

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by rypinion

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/S...ntureVenture-to-developer-305216841.html

There are so many errors in this article. Also on the homepage. Shouldn't all that new money help them?

On topic, hopefully the retail and parking spaces aren't just referring to what's already planned for the tower, and this lot just becomes staging space and ends up empty 'when' the tower is complete.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

I wonder if the parkade project might have more legs than sky city

Apparently the sale of the St Regis by CV to fortress (yes at a loss) is conditional on them beginning construction on the parkade/retail/commercial project no later than April.2017, the Hotel will continue operating as is until development begins.. So you may be right..time will tell..

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by Cyro

Apparently the sale of the St Regis by CV to fortress (yes at a loss) is conditional on them beginning construction on the parkade/retail/commercial project no later than April.2017, the Hotel will continue operating as is until development begins.. So you may be right..time will tell..

Maybe they will use it to finance one floor per year.........

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Maybe they will use it to finance one floor per year.........

I enjoy out of the box thinking and solutions well done...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

Perhaps a naive question but would the deal likely include penalties if they don't follow through on the project within a certain time frame?

Further to that:

The deal is subject to a development agreement with Fortress Real Developments Inc. that would include a 625-stall parking structure and commercial/retail complex. Construction has to begin by 2017 or the deal will be scrapped.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/c...l-plans-for-parkade-and-retail-1.3090052

[buzzg]

I wish someone, maybe Fortress, would do with the St. Regis what was done with the Drake hotel off Ossington in Toronto. Take an old, once nice, run-down hotel in a sketchy, gut it and reopen it as a swanky boutique hotel with a wicked bar that's busy every night and hard to get into. The Drake was the catalyst that started the renaissance on Ossington. Hell, Fortress could use that as a funding method to and start using the building immediately.

On a more realistic note though, that^ is exactly what should be done with the Osborne Inn... it's the perfect candidate to be transformed, in a perfect location.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I wish someone, maybe Fortress, would do with the St. Regis what was done with the Drake hotel off Ossington in Toronto. Take an old, once nice, run-down hotel in a sketchy, gut it and reopen it as a swanky boutique hotel with a wicked bar that's busy every night and hard to get into. The Drake was the catalyst that started the renaissance on Ossington. Hell, Fortress could use that as a funding method to and start using the building immediately.

On a more realistic note though, that^ is exactly what should be done with the Osborne Inn... it's the perfect candidate to be transformed, in a perfect location.

I agree, something like that would be fantastic if it ever happened. The existence of the Mere Hotel suggests that smaller boutique-type hotels have a place downtown.

I can think of a few hotels that could stand to get the Drake kind of makeover. The most obvious candidate is the St. Charles, which is in a great location and the owner talked about doing just that but hasn't and probably won't. There may still be some swanky-looking drawings on the 546 website that illustrates the concept.

Others in that category also include the Royal Albert, the Woodbine and the Garrick. Possibly the McLaren, although it's a bit too far off the beaten path most likely.

Osborne Village Inn and Sherbrook Inn could be suitable candidates too, although those buildings lack the character of the pre-war type hotels.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I wish someone, maybe Fortress, would do with the St. Regis what was done with the Drake hotel off Ossington in Toronto. Take an old, once nice, run-down hotel in a sketchy, gut it and reopen it as a swanky boutique hotel with a wicked bar

Maybe I am dreaming too big but I think there is huge potential for the Malbourgh. It has such a great structure to work with it could easily become another gem like the Fort Garry has evolved into. It just needs someone with the right vision and courage to move away from its current income stream.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Maybe I am dreaming too big but I think there is huge potential for the Malbourgh. It has such a great structure to work with it could easily become another gem like the Fort Garry has evolved into. It just needs someone with the right vision and courage to move away from its current income stream.

Marlborough to me has the potential to become more of a regular moderately-priced but still mainstream hotel than a chic boutique-type property. With a renovation, I could see it being, say, a limited service Holiday Inn Express or Courtyard-type place.

I do recall hearing that the old part of the hotel (i.e., not the 1950s cube) is no longer used for hotel purposes... I have no idea what is actually in there... offices, or what? It would be interesting to know whether there is any potential of turning the entire building back into a hotel.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

I agree, something like that would be fantastic if it ever happened. The existence of the Mere Hotel suggests that smaller boutique-type hotels have a place downtown.

I can think of a few hotels that could stand to get the Drake kind of makeover. The most obvious candidate is the St. Charles, which is in a great location and the owner talked about doing just that but hasn't and probably won't. There may still be some swanky-looking drawings on the 546 website that illustrates the concept.

Others in that category also include the Royal Albert, the Woodbine and the Garrick. Possibly the McLaren, although it's a bit too far off the beaten path most likely.

Osborne Village Inn and Sherbrook Inn could be suitable candidates too, although those buildings lack the character of the pre-war type hotels.

The Sherbrook Inn owners have seen multiple offers. The problem is that nobody can figure out a way to have any sort of redevelopment hurdle the return that emanates from the pawn shop so everything dies right at the basic valuation.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

Marlborough to me has the potential to become more of a regular moderately-priced but still mainstream hotel than a chic boutique-type property. With a renovation, I could see it being, say, a limited service Holiday Inn Express or Courtyard-type place.

I do recall hearing that the old part of the hotel (i.e., not the 1950s cube) is no longer used for hotel purposes... I have no idea what is actually in there... offices, or what? It would be interesting to know whether there is any potential of turning the entire building back into a hotel.

I would honestly go in the middle of Holiday Inn and Fort Garry... Like a Hilton or Mariott. Judging by the fact the owner has actually put some money into the exterior of the 50s addition, I'd guess he may be ready to do some serious work when the permanent residents move out. If he was planning on just cashing in on the government's payments for a lot longer and run the place as it is now, I don't see why he would've spent that money.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

The Sherbrook Inn owners have seen multiple offers. The problem is that nobody can figure out a way to have any sort of redevelopment hurdle the return that emanates from the pawn shop so everything dies right at the basic valuation.

Help them negotiate a new lease/sale of another location nearby.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Help them negotiate a new lease/sale of another location nearby.

The problem is that once that pawn license dies on the lot, it dies forever. Sherbrook falls within a PDO known as Neighbourhood Main Streets and it's expressly prohibited as even a conditional, temporary, or accessory usage.

You'd have to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars trying to amend the plan and there's no way in hell Jenny Gerbasi is going to let that happen. Perhaps if you were tearing it down for the purposes of establishing a surface parking lot for a portion of her donor base things may be different?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

The Sherbrook Inn owners have seen multiple offers. The problem is that nobody can figure out a way to have any sort of redevelopment hurdle the return that emanates from the pawn shop so everything dies right at the basic valuation.

I wonder if that might change if the area continues along its current trajectory... just think, 10 years ago, who would have thought that Sherbrook would become a trendy urban strip that is getting close to matching the character of a Corydon? If it keeps going in that direction, it's not hard to imagine that space becoming more valuable for purposes other than pawn.

Originally Posted by buzzg

I would honestly go in the middle of Holiday Inn and Fort Garry... Like a Hilton or Mariott. Judging by the fact the owner has actually put some money into the exterior of the 50s addition, I'd guess he may be ready to do some serious work when the permanent residents move out. If he was planning on just cashing in on the government's payments for a lot longer and run the place as it is now, I don't see why he would've spent that money.

Yeah, the facilities are there from when the Marlborough was a upper-echelon hotel. The dining facilities there are spectacular... the dining room (which is no longer used as a restaurant) has a spectacular double-vaulted ceiling, and Joanna's Cafe is one of the most impressive restaurant spaces in town. The banquet halls at the top are great too. It would probably take a ton of work to get the rooms up to snuff, though.

Frankly, I'm surprised that the Marlborough has dropped off as much as it has... it's so close to the business hub of the city that you'd think it wouldn't have to rely on long-term residents which I understand it has been doing a lot of over the past 4 years.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

I wonder if that might change if the area continues along its current trajectory...

The answer is: never. I can't publicly share the numbers because I've been privy to proposals, but there won't be a time in our lives where the value of a development will ever be greater than that of what is effectively a high-interest banking establishment.

It also helps to remember that the beverage room, beer vendor, VLTs, and rooms all do well. They're mostly longer-term occupancies, but they're filled.

And the place is free and clear. We're talking about real valuations reaching into the teens where millions are the denomination. The Sherbrook Hotel is not a goose the ownership intends to kill .

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

Frankly, I'm surprised that the Marlborough has dropped off as much as it has... it's so close to the business hub of the city that you'd think it wouldn't have to rely on long-term residents which I understand it has been doing a lot of over the past 4 years.

It's basically the St. Regis with a beverage room. It almost exclusively services aboriginals from up north. And not that there's anything wrong with that, but there's a certain understanding amongst hotel patrons where this city is concerned. Your story about the wealthy business owner and the St. Regis captures this essence well.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

The answer is: never. I can't publicly share the numbers because I've been privy to proposals, but there won't be a time in our lives where the value of a development will ever be greater than that of what is effectively a high-interest banking establishment.

It also helps to remember that the beverage room, beer vendor, VLTs, and rooms all do well. They're mostly longer-term occupancies, but they're filled.

And the place is free and clear. We're talking about real valuations reaching into the teens where millions are the denomination. The Sherbrook Hotel is not a goose the ownership intends to kill .

Maybe we can get centreventure in there to give them an offer they can't refuse...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

Maybe we can get centreventure in there to give them an offer they can't refuse...

Heh, don't give them ideas.

I do have a hard time believing that if the WB area continues to gentrify, that somehow the pawn shop would remain untouchable for decades to come. Pawn shops have come and gone and if the character of the neighbourhood changes to the point where people would be willing to pay good money to live or operate other businesses at that corner, that the one there wouldn't go too.

I remember 15 years ago people were saying that no one would buy condos in the Exchange District either... well, it isn't Yaletown, but clearly there are enough projects to disprove that theory. Things change.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

I wonder if that might change if the area continues along its current trajectory... just think, 10 years ago, who would have thought that Sherbrook would become a trendy urban strip that is getting close to matching the character of a Corydon? If it keeps going in that direction, it's not hard to imagine that space becoming more valuable for purposes other than pawn.



Yeah, the facilities are there from when the Marlborough was a upper-echelon hotel. The dining facilities there are spectacular... the dining room (which is no longer used as a restaurant) has a spectacular double-vaulted ceiling, and Joanna's Cafe is one of the most impressive restaurant spaces in town. The banquet halls at the top are great too. It would probably take a ton of work to get the rooms up to snuff, though.

Frankly, I'm surprised that the Marlborough has dropped off as much as it has... it's so close to the business hub of the city that you'd think it wouldn't have to rely on long-term residents which I understand it has been doing a lot of over the past 4 years.

The thing is though that even at that time, The Marlborough was reaching the end of its decorative lifespan, and needed a major overhaul. So my guess is rather than spend a whole shwack of money to renovate, then face normal ups and downs of hoteling in Winnipeg, the owner decided to take full capacity for a while and delay the inevitable (and make a huge chunk of change while doing it).

The thing with this whole situation, is that nobody envisioned this to go on for this long... and there's no sign anything will change soon.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

Heh, don't give them ideas.

I do have a hard time believing that if the WB area continues to gentrify, that somehow the pawn shop would remain untouchable for decades to come. Pawn shops have come and gone and if the character of the neighbourhood changes to the point where people would be willing to pay good money to live or operate other businesses at that corner, that the one there wouldn't go too.

I remember 15 years ago people were saying that no one would buy condos in the Exchange District either... well, it isn't Yaletown, but clearly there are enough projects to disprove that theory. Things change.

It's not that nobody would buy condos there, it's that you're looking at a land cost that's almost literally an order of magnitude greater than prices can support. Think about the basics of the lot for a moment without the hotel. Given the land area, zoning, parking, and other entitlements and limitations, practically speaking you're looking at somewhere on the order of 60 units with a reasonable variance down to 80% of parking requirement. I won't bore you with the other details, but this allows for a land cost of between $1.5MM and $2MM depending on whether you're building rentals or condos. If it's condos and you have a pile of investors lined up who are willing to purchase immediately, slightly over $2MM given you still have 60 units to sell in an area that's still comparatively slow, but you might get your pre-sales more quickly.

Let's say a fair valuation of the Sherbrook Hotel is in the mid-teens. Think about how many years would need to elapse before the land became more valuable than the going concern. A) You'd need to allow significantly more density, and B) Your per square foot price would need to more than double. Both of those things would need to happen before anything because you need to rationalize killing off a very good investment in an effort towards building a better one.

So perhaps that could happen, but to put that into a little perspective, that would mean that we would need a market that looked a lot like Vancouver or Toronto's do today.