The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

Fair enough - many valid points raised.

However, all I'll say is there's plenty of support for LRT outside City Council. And, really, that's what matters, isn't it? Hamilton and its denizens will benefit tremendously from this investment regardless of the idiotic and parochial politicking found inside the council chambers. And if it benefits Hamilton, it'll benefit the GTHA and the province as a whole. It's a good investment in people and the economy.

And BTW there has be a tonne of planning and preparation for LRT - that's definitely not an issue.

There is not only support for SHIFT in London City Hall but also the Londoners themselves. Hamilton already has a transportation system Londoners could only dream about. Hamilton has both GO rail and bus and driving around Hamilton with it's many freeways is a breeze. Driving in London is a horror and for a city it's size it has, by far, the worse traffic in the country which also slows down the buses.

How would LRT in Hamilton help the whole province but LRT in London wouldn't? Many in fact would say that London is Ontario's third most important city due to it's regional impact and having a large university. It is the gateway to SW Ontario and all of the Western USA and it a major road, rail, and Greyhound bus junction.

Many, including myself, see Hamilton's importance on the provincial scene as a declining one. Yes Hamilton is growing {at about the same rate as London} but increasingly it is seen as less of an independent city and more of a Toronto suburb. The fact that transit for the area is now viewed as GTAH proves that.

I am not saying Hamilton shouldn't get funding for it's LRT, that is not the issue. The issue is one of equality. Ottawa, KW, and London are expected to come up with a third of the price of their rapid transit systems but some how that rule doesn't apply to Tor/Miss/Ham. What makes people in the GTAH so damn special that they get everything scot free but the rest of the province has to pony up?

That is not a way to run a province and just, and rightfully so, reinforces Ontarians views that there are 2 Ontario's...........GTAH and "other".

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I may not be fully understanding how it would work? But I'm not sure from looking at it that it would be a big difference at rush hour--there would still be as many people from the ends of the lines, converging on a handful of downtown stations.

The city just really needs to extend the existing lines, and as SkahHigh says, and build the DRL (without which extending the system will only overload it more).

But that's not what's happening. Now the Finch LRT is taking priority over everything, apparently? And THEN the ridiculous Sheppard subway will be built? And THEN maybe, in the distant future, some kind of DRL?

I haven't been paying too much attention to Toronto transit lately, so I might be wrong, but that's my understanding of the latest. I also read that Doug Ford recently said the DRL would be his top priority, which is funny given all his anti-downtown stumping in recent years.

The Wynne government's big transit funding announcement this morning contained nothing about a DRL. All in all, it looks like like Toronto will continue to be totally screwed on the transit file in the short and medium term.

I keep thinking back to the Transit City plan, pre-Ford. What a goddamn tragedy it was killed.

To be clear, the diagram I made isn't something that could be realistically implemented now. It would really have needed to have been part of the original design. The difference is that people entering or leaving downtown to/from the east or west would do so from the south of downtown rather than from the north and transfering to Bloor. A few existing stations on the Bloor line wouldn't exist and a few stations that don't currently exist would be created. Basically instead of Bloor being one line (shown traditionally in green) and the Y-U-S being one line (usually shown in yellow) the two main lines would each have a north to south arm and either an east or a wast arm.

Basically the big difference is that during say the evening rush, instead of all the people who plan to go from the financial district and move east or west along the Bloor line wouldn't be going north on the YUS line and transfering, they'd be going south first and either staying on that line or transferring to the other line at Union. So the only people going north would be the people whose destination was north rather than the people whose destination was east or west as well.

[SkahHigh]

The problem with transit in Toronto and politics is that people from the suburbs (or suburban areas let's say) want transit to be closer to their residence rather than having less-crowded, more efficient transit. Which is why projects like the Crosstown or the Finch West LRT (which both require a connection to go Downtown) are being prioritized over the DRL. This may have to do with politics, as I know Rob Ford was very close to the citizens of Etobicoke in the past, but it's not the solution. These LRT lines (even though they'll be very useful to some people) are only pumping more users into the two main subway lines. This is also one of the cons of extending the Blue line in Montreal, because it will be pumping more users into the Orange line.

[niwell]

In the case of the Finch West LRT, and to a lesser extent the Eglinton LRT the capacity issue isn't as pronounced. While the Yonge portion of the YUS line is overcrowded, the University-Spadina portion is most definitely not. Even at rush hour it's not bad getting on, especially with the new subway cars in service. The Finch West LRT will terminate at Finch West station, and the Eglinton Crosstown gives riders coming from the east or west the choice to get off at Eglinton West station. While Finch is suburban, the underground portion of the Eglinton line runs primarily in pre-WWII areas, or at least the edge of pre-WWII Toronto.

Both lines also predate Rob Ford and were pushed by the very left-wing David Miller, often (somewhat ironically in this case) accused of being a downtown elitist.

[1overcosc]

If anything the Finch West LRT may actually help with congestion by drawing more riders onto the University-Spadina branch of the subway which is underutilized rather than the overcrowded Yonge branch. Some riders from Finch West who currently take the bus down to Yonge for the connection will start making that connection at University-Spadina instead.

The extension to Vaughan could also do the same by encouraging some of York Region's riders at Finch station (whether coming in from York buses or park-and-riding) to go to the new VMC or Highway 407 stations instead.

[caltrane74]

New Signal Control will give a 25% increase to subway capacity on the Yonge-University Line, so that will help. They say it should be done by about the time, these new LRT lines (Eglinton/Finch) are completed.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

New Signal Control will give a 25% increase to subway capacity on the Yonge-University Line, so that will help. They say it should be done by about the time, these new LRT lines (Eglinton/Finch) are completed.

Have they announced how many trains per hour per direction will be possible with the upgrades?

[caltrane74]

From the TTC

https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects/Automatic_Train_Control/index.jsp

From the Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transpor...someday_but_for_now_its_more_delays.html

[theman23]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

uldn't get funding for it's LRT, that is not the issue. The issue is one of equality. Ottawa, KW, and London are expected to come up with a third of the price of their rapid transit systems but some how that rule doesn't apply to Tor/Miss/Ham. What makes people in the GTAH so damn special that they get everything scot free but the rest of the province has to pony up?
.

Er...it's the most populated, and most economically important part of the province?

[Innsertnamehere]

Before it was toronto vs rest of province, then it was GTA vs rest of province, now it's GTHA vs rest of province. Is ssiguy just going to collapse if the libs offer 2/3rds for Ottawa phase 2?

Hamilton isn't getting off scot free either. The province by the looks of it is trying to get them to pay to extend it to its originally planned terminus. Hurontario is looking for municipal contributions as well, but they are not required.

And don't claim London has to pay for theirs, they don't even know what "theirs" is, yet alone who is going to pay for it.

[GreatTallNorth2]

I'd say the language Kathleen Wynne is using at these press conferences is positive for all Ontario cities looking for transit funding. Kitchener got the ball rolling and the funding long before Wynne was re-elected. London has sat on it's hands for so many years and it doesn't actually have a concrete plan yet. The good news is that the city is moving at light speed to put together the plan and the politicians that were voted in are quite progressive compared to the normal ass backward small minds of yesteryear. No complaints from this Londoner...at least not until we have a plan put forward and we see how it is funded.

This country has never seen this much transit investment at all once so Ontarians that support transit have little to complain about.

[matt602]

I'm sure that the province would be receptive if London put together a smaller package in the mean time like the $300 Million one that Hamilton made for interim improvements to bus service such as bus stop amenities, garage upgrades, service enhancements, etc. Does London have a well established bus rapid transit'esque route like Hamilton's B and A-Line routes?

Growing the line first and coming up with a solid LRT plan as Hamilton has for the past decade should be London's priority. We grew the line since it opened in the 1980's, made a plan and now we've got the funding.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

There is not only support for SHIFT in London City Hall but also the Londoners themselves. Hamilton already has a transportation system Londoners could only dream about. Hamilton has both GO rail and bus and driving around Hamilton with it's many freeways is a breeze. Driving in London is a horror and for a city it's size it has, by far, the worse traffic in the country which also slows down the buses.

I know London's public transit situation isn't great but your assertion that Hamilton's transportation system is something of dreams is, well, way off. Hamilton needs a major investment in transit regardless of what City Council believes.

How would LRT in Hamilton help the whole province but LRT in London wouldn't? Many in fact would say that London is Ontario's third most important city due to it's regional impact and having a large university. It is the gateway to SW Ontario and all of the Western USA and it a major road, rail, and Greyhound bus junction.

You've created, I dunno, a false dichotomy of sorts. Just because Hamilton is getting LRT funding doesn't mean London is any less deserving or that it won't in the future or, for that matter, that Hamilton shouldn't get it. You ought to just focus on London's endeavours for higher order transit just as Hamiltonians have done for years and years and years.

Many, including myself, see Hamilton's importance on the provincial scene as a declining one. Yes Hamilton is growing {at about the same rate as London} but increasingly it is seen as less of an independent city and more of a Toronto suburb. The fact that transit for the area is now viewed as GTAH proves that.

Now you're just being nasty. London's a fine city. As a visitor, somewhat underrated I'd say. In some ways, I believe Hamilton and London are quite similar in that they're both overshadowed by Toronto's girth and breadth. You should be happy for Hamilton not angry.

I am not saying Hamilton shouldn't get funding for it's LRT, that is not the issue. The issue is one of equality. Ottawa, KW, and London are expected to come up with a third of the price of their rapid transit systems but some how that rule doesn't apply to Tor/Miss/Ham. What makes people in the GTAH so damn special that they get everything scot free but the rest of the province has to pony up?

Talk to Metrolinx. Yes, it's an agency of the Province of Ontario. However, its modus operandi, as stated on their webpage, is to coordinate and integrate all the various forms of transit in the GTHA. As it stands, getting around the area is a bit of a nightmare. That's been well documented. The harder it is to get around, as you know, the poorer the economy functions. That's not to say other cities don't deserve the same treatment but, as already mentioned, their raison d'etre is to improve transit within the Golden Horseshoe because, let's be honest, it is the most important economic region in the province.

That is not a way to run a province and just, and rightfully so, reinforces Ontarians views that there are 2 Ontario's...........GTAH and "other".

I get it but my advice would be to focus on London's efforts to improve transit. Do the studies. Do the surveys. Do the environmental work - just as Hamilton has done. Get your ducks in a row and the province will listen.

[ssiguy]

I am quite confident London will get a very sizeable chunk of transit funds from Queen's Park. That is certainly good news and Ontario cities, thanks to Wynne, are seeing a transit renaissance that just 10 years ago would have been unimaginable.

That is all wonderful news and yes, Hamilton should definitely get rapid transit funding but that is not my point. My point is the inequity of how the money is being dolled out.
Not only is the entire Golden Horseshoe getting all GO expansion paid for but the GTAH is also getting all their LRT paid for as well. So why are Ottawa, KWC, and London being treated the same way?

I do not understand how this can in any way be justified.

There are now 2 rules for infrastructure in Ontario...........one for the GTAH and one for everyone else. That is NOT how you govern a province by showing clear favoritism for one area over another.

Wynne is not the Premier of Toronto by rather the Premier of Ontario and it's about time she started acting that way but treating all Ontarians and Ontario taxpayers fairly which she is not doing.

[middeljohn]

Having spent 6 years both commuting to and living in Hamilton I am obviously a bit biased.

But this is fantastic news! For decades now Hamilton has consistently been regarded by non-Hamiltonians as the "armpit of Ontario". That place you have to pass through to get to the Falls. When the steel industry was thriving, the rest of the province and nation benefitted greatly from it. But as the industry gradually died down and the city's economic output dropped, the rest of the nation turned its back on Hamilton.

In many ways Hamilton also has itself to blame for the demise of the city's lower half and especially the downtown. It was the city afterall that elected to essentially cut off the downtown core by two 3 and 5 lane one-way, 60km/h posted arterials. The way the Main and Ming are designed they essentially act as highways without overpasses, severely limiting pedestrians' willingness to go downtown. This played a huge role in the downtown losing its vibrancy.

In order for the city and especially the downtown to recover transit must be improved and all the one-ways need to converted back to two-ways, which have time and time again been proven to be much more pedestrian friendly. This LRT line will be a huge help but there will be a lot more work left to be done.

I've lived in London and yes it sucks that London isn't getting any provincial money for transit upgrades, but of the two cities Hamilton is much more in need. It also is a bigger city and therefore has higher transit numbers. In fact I would say Hamilton desperately needs this. Hamilton is the ONLY major city in Canada with more outflowing than incoming commuters per day. It's embarassing and needs to change.

[The_Architect]

/facepalm

A province contributing towards the vastly most significant region in the province? The devil, you say!

ssiguy you need to work on at least trying to hide your disdain for everything Toronto. Toronto contributes waaaayyyy more towards the rest of the province than it gets back.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by The_Architect

/facepalm

A province contributing towards the vastly most significant region in the province? The devil, you say!

ssiguy you need to work on at least trying to hide your disdain for everything Toronto. Toronto contributes waaaayyyy more towards the rest of the province than it gets back.

I agree with the above and I'm a non-GTA Ontarian.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I am quite confident London will get a very sizeable chunk of transit funds from Queen's Park. That is certainly good news and Ontario cities, thanks to Wynne, are seeing a transit renaissance that just 10 years ago would have been unimaginable.

That is all wonderful news and yes, Hamilton should definitely get rapid transit funding but that is not my point. My point is the inequity of how the money is being dolled out.
Not only is the entire Golden Horseshoe getting all GO expansion paid for but the GTAH is also getting all their LRT paid for as well. So why are Ottawa, KWC, and London being treated the same way?

I do not understand how this can in any way be justified.

There are now 2 rules for infrastructure in Ontario...........one for the GTAH and one for everyone else. That is NOT how you govern a province by showing clear favoritism for one area over another.

Wynne is not the Premier of Toronto by rather the Premier of Ontario and it's about time she started acting that way but treating all Ontarians and Ontario taxpayers fairly which she is not doing.

Well, it looks like you can get 100% funding for transit projects, you just eliminate 1/3rd of the project from what you originally proposed and call the savings the city's share.

The province would have done much better to establish metrics for proposed projects that once the project passes certain thresholds causes various amounts of per capita funding to flow.

The accounting for these projects is an interesting area as well. The province will be paying for these projects for at least 30 years, but many cities look like they are counting on new money over and above the announced envelopes beyond the first 10 years.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by The_Architect

/facepalm

A province contributing towards the vastly most significant region in the province? The devil, you say!

ssiguy you need to work on at least trying to hide your disdain for everything Toronto. Toronto contributes waaaayyyy more towards the rest of the province than it gets back.

I hate to say this, because its true, but the GTA(H) powers the province economically. Investment in infrastructure here will pay heavy dividends for the rest of the province, including those areas outside the GTA.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by middeljohn

I've lived in London and yes it sucks that London isn't getting any provincial money for transit upgrades, but of the two cities Hamilton is much more in need. It also is a bigger city and therefore has higher transit numbers.

London is getting major transit money, but that won't be until later this year at the earliest. The city is just determining the corridors and in November choosing the technology (brt or lrt).

Also London has pretty high transit ridership despite our crap system. I'm not sure that Hamilton has higher transit ridership.