Southeast Transitway/Southeast LRT | ~17 Stations | $2 Billion | Proposed

[sim]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

The same could be said for Downtown if that's your argument. The point is the SE is the second largest employment area in the city. I know many on here seem to think it's just an exurb or something not worth the city's attention, but pretending that won't change the facts. With QP ramping up it's only going to increase in importance.

That's essentially not the point at all, and the same could not be said for downtown. It takes a cursory glance of a 3d google map to understand this.

Geometry, centrality, land use intensity, etc.

Edit: as the preceding post

[J-D]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Great!

Looking at that map it has to be said though, the SE line goes through a whole lot of nothing. The population in catchment areas of stations is almost non existent between Ramsay and Mckenzie Towne.

I'd be okay with an express train downtown from the SE.

I agree that those stations might be underutilized if they were built right now, but it doesn't really make any sense not to provide the option.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by J-D

I'd be okay with an express train downtown from the SE.

I agree that those stations might be underutilized if they were built right now, but it doesn't really make any sense not to provide the option.

If commuter rail could be built cheaply to the far SE that would be the best option. LRT isn't what you want any way on a 25km commute, it's too slow.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by milomilo

But downtown has a much higher concentration of jobs, and being central means that it is on average the closest to people on all LRT lines. The SE industrial area's jobs are more spread out and may require a transfer to a bus to get to their final destination. For most people working in those industrial areas (myself included, actually), the only viable option to get to work remains driving (or cycling).

That's true but I have worked with and seen many people who take transit to the industrial parks in the SE. Having the train nearby would only help their trips. Also QP adds to an already concentrated employment area along 114th by Douglas Glen. I don't see how you can ignore that. Factor in the new South Health Campus and it's a major employment hub.

[O-tacular]

I'd be fine with a commuter train to start and expand service as it needs it. The question is would that actually be cheaper to build out than actual lrt service? The tracks and infrastructure would be the same. I guess the only difference would be number and frequency of trains?

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

The same could be said for Downtown if that's your argument. The point is the SE is the second largest employment area in the city. I know many on here seem to think it's just an exurb or something not worth the city's attention, but pretending that won't change the facts. With QP ramping up it's only going to increase in importance.

It's pretty ridiculous to hang the argument for SELRT on all the employment in the area; you mean the employment on the other side of a rail yard/canal/landfill from where the train actually goes? The employment well connected to the single biggest and fastest road project in the history of Calgary? That employment?

Sure, it is the second largest employment area in the city. Jimmy Garoppolo is the second best quarterback on the New England Patriots. "Everybody wants to be like you" is Snow's second biggest single. The Ponoka Stampede is the second biggest rodeo in Alberta. There can be a real big drop off between first and second, and there is in this case.

Quarry Park is small potatoes; if the entire office space at full buildout were compressed to a single block, it would barely make the top five downtown blocks. Instead, the employment is spread over an area the size of downtown, and the train/busway stops at the very edge - how much would transit ridership drop in downtown Calgary if the C-train stopped at City Hall station only? And if there was ample free parking?

By the time you're calling the entire SE industrial area, Quarry Park, Seton etc. a "hub", you've stretched the term past the breaking point into oblivion. In the context of urban transportation, a "hub" is a single building, or a few blocks, not an area the size of Bermuda.

The most relevant measure of how much employment the SE has from the perspective of justifying LRT is how much employment is within a reasonable walking distance from each station. And that ain't much. If we're counting employment that is only accessible after transferring to a shuttle bus, then walking for 20 minutes in the ditch, then we've lost the plot. The actual facts are that the SE has a fair amount of employment, but it is incredibly dispersed in a pattern that makes successful transit service impossible.

[joe498]

'Keating wants to fast-track southeast LRT, instead of bus corridor first'

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news...theast-lrt-instead-of-bus-corridor-first

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by joe498

'Keating wants to fast-track southeast LRT, instead of bus corridor first'

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news...theast-lrt-instead-of-bus-corridor-first

That is the ideal solution and I would love to see it happen. For the entire green line too, not just the SE portion.

[DarthMalgus]

/\Agreed. I view BRT as penny-wise, pound foolish. Wasting money on an inadequate, bare bones solution today so that we can spend even more money in the future.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

It's pretty ridiculous to hang the argument for SELRT on all the employment in the area; you mean the employment on the other side of a rail yard/canal/landfill from where the train actually goes? The employment well connected to the single biggest and fastest road project in the history of Calgary? That employment?

Sure, it is the second largest employment area in the city. Jimmy Garoppolo is the second best quarterback on the New England Patriots. "Everybody wants to be like you" is Snow's second biggest single. The Ponoka Stampede is the second biggest rodeo in Alberta. There can be a real big drop off between first and second, and there is in this case.

Quarry Park is small potatoes; if the entire office space at full buildout were compressed to a single block, it would barely make the top five downtown blocks. Instead, the employment is spread over an area the size of downtown, and the train/busway stops at the very edge - how much would transit ridership drop in downtown Calgary if the C-train stopped at City Hall station only? And if there was ample free parking?

By the time you're calling the entire SE industrial area, Quarry Park, Seton etc. a "hub", you've stretched the term past the breaking point into oblivion. In the context of urban transportation, a "hub" is a single building, or a few blocks, not an area the size of Bermuda.

The most relevant measure of how much employment the SE has from the perspective of justifying LRT is how much employment is within a reasonable walking distance from each station. And that ain't much. If we're counting employment that is only accessible after transferring to a shuttle bus, then walking for 20 minutes in the ditch, then we've lost the plot. The actual facts are that the SE has a fair amount of employment, but it is incredibly dispersed in a pattern that makes successful transit service impossible.

There are some valid points you make but QP is not the geographic size of DT. Also I think i'd rephrase what I said about the whole SE being a hub and point out that there are at the very least 2 concentrated TOD style hubs in the form of QP and Seton. The industrial parks are spread out and thus a different case. I would still say it's an improvement for anyone taking transit who works there though not to have to commute all the way to Chinook or DT via bus before then transferring to a train. Obviously those wouldn't be walking distance but I'm sure you'd lop off at least 20 mins one way of bus time.

[holhm22]

So everyone's saying commuter rail for the SE. And I agree, but since the green line also includes north central, it would not really work for them. Heavy rail perhaps?

[Spring2008]

New taxes for infrastructure?

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news...ew-tax-options-after-talking-with-public

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

There are some valid points you make but QP is not the geographic size of DT. Also I think i'd rephrase what I said about the whole SE being a hub and point out that there are at the very least 2 concentrated TOD style hubs in the form of QP and Seton. The industrial parks are spread out and thus a different case. I would still say it's an improvement for anyone taking transit who works there though not to have to commute all the way to Chinook or DT via bus before then transferring to a train. Obviously those wouldn't be walking distance but I'm sure you'd lop off at least 20 mins one way of bus time.

QP looks pretty darn close to the size of downtown to me:

Here's the link to MapFrappe, to see for yourself.

I'm not saying it's not an improvement. But cost benefit analysis does not work by saying "welp, there's a benefit, therefore it's worth any cost". What I am saying is that the improvements for travel to the SE Industrial area are marginal. For one, it's a market that will always be very difficult to service efficiently by transit, and that is well served by cars.

For another, the SELRT is not the only conceivable transit project south of Peigan and east of the river. BRT or a transitway on 52nd St E would provide more transit benefits to SE industrial workers, for instance. The transitway on 17th Ave SE and especially the south crosstown BRT would also provide supporting access into the SE industrial area. And prioritizing SELRT would by necessity deprioritize these other projects.

[AaronMak]

You guys are thinking short term. The SE if the fastest growing quadrant of this city and has been for quite some time. It has more ares zoned for density, it holds the majority of the industrial work and now has an absolutly booming commercial area. Both QP and Seton are slated to become the next biggest commercial hubs in the city and it will happen quite quickly. Aswell most of the cities new suburbs are being built in the SE. That transit line will be well utilized by the time this line is built. For once the city is actually planning ahead so an area doesn't dissolve into chaos first and the city end up scrammbling to fix it. IMO its a better used of $5b than the SWRR as it will be used by more people, spanning a larger area and of every demographic. Also once it is in place it paves the way for high density around the stations AND it will relieve quite a bit of traffic off of deer foot. This line should be #1 priority for the city if it wants to get away from being one giant sprawled out suburb with a modern urban plan (unlike their current freeway mentality that has a striking similiarity to 1960's Los Angeles).

[Fuzz]

What about North Central? It's the busiest bus corridor in the city. Why is the future SE service more important than the current needs of the North?

FWIW, I doubt it will have any noticeable affect on Deerfoot, and the argument about "build it and TOD will come" doesn't hold much water, since we have many many examples already where that hasn't happened. QP is the only reasonable destination right now, Seton is way to far away. We have had lots of these discussions before, perhaps you might want to browse this thread and the transit one for answers, since you are new here.

[AaronMak]

0h for sure thanks for the direction I will certainly head over that way. But to clear up what i said; i should have mention north central. What I meant though is that i think they should build the entire thing. Bother North/Central and the SE line at once. The entire project would be a huge benefit to the city.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by AaronMak

You guys are thinking short term. The SE if the fastest growing quadrant of this city and has been for quite some time. It has more ares zoned for density, it holds the majority of the industrial work and now has an absolutly booming commercial area. Both QP and Seton are slated to become the next biggest commercial hubs in the city and it will happen quite quickly. Aswell most of the cities new suburbs are being built in the SE. That transit line will be well utilized by the time this line is built. For once the city is actually planning ahead so an area doesn't dissolve into chaos first and the city end up scrammbling to fix it. IMO its a better used of $5b than the SWRR as it will be used by more people, spanning a larger area and of every demographic. Also once it is in place it paves the way for high density around the stations AND it will relieve quite a bit of traffic off of deer foot. This line should be #1 priority for the city if it wants to get away from being one giant sprawled out suburb with a modern urban plan (unlike their current freeway mentality that has a striking similiarity to 1960's Los Angeles).

Sorry to stray off topic but I've seen this mentioned a few times as if it is fact when it isn't true at all - Calgary does not have anything close to a network of freeways in the city and the only new freeway being built goes around the city. We only have one road that can truly be called a freeway that crosses the city in its entirety. Comparing our freeways to LA's is ludicrous.

[Spring2008]

So SE Transitway might built as LRT from the start?

http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/05/25/council-gives-go-ahead-for-southeast-calgary-lrt-study

[outoftheice]

Part of it very well could be. Here's a bit more of a comprehensive article that was published in the Herald:

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news...lrt-but-also-whether-its-worth-the-costs

What both articles seem to gloss over is the fact that this study will examine how to phase construction of the Green Line LRT (if funding becomes available) and not just the SE portion. My guess is the first phase will include LRT from Quarry Park to somewhere north of Downtown to demonstrate that the project is more than just a SE LRT and to keep a large number of the northern Councillors onboard. Further phases will most likely involve incremental expansion of the line first to the north and then to the southeast.

Essentially this is the City's reaction to the fact they think the Federal Government and Provincial Government are more likely to dig deep for funding a prestige LRT project than they are a transitway project. Once the plan is presented in December, the City can go to the other orders of government and say "We want to build this.... you need to help by giving us X number of dollars" vs "We would like funding for our LRT and depending on how many dollars you give us will determine just what we do with it" as is the case now.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

Part of it very well could be. Here's a bit more of a comprehensive article that was published in the Herald:

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news...lrt-but-also-whether-its-worth-the-costs

What both articles seem to gloss over is the fact that this study will examine how to phase construction of the Green Line LRT (if funding becomes available) and not just the SE portion. My guess is the first phase will include LRT from Quarry Park to somewhere north of Downtown to demonstrate that the project is more than just a SE LRT and to keep a large number of the northern Councillors onboard. Further phases will most likely involve incremental expansion of the line first to the north and then to the southeast.

Essentially this is the City's reaction to the fact they think the Federal Government and Provincial Government are more likely to dig deep for funding a prestige LRT project than they are a transitway project. Once the plan is presented in December, the City can go to the other orders of government and say "We want to build this.... you need to help by giving us X number of dollars" vs "We would like funding for our LRT and depending on how many dollars you give us will determine just what we do with it" as is the case now.

Politically, I get why there are a lot of reasons to consider the Green Line as one project, but the reality is that unless the city is promised $5-6B, there is no way the north leg will be built in the same decade as the southeast leg.

This is because of a few problems:
-There is only room for necessary facilities on the SE leg, and thus it must be built first
-The SELRT is almost useless until it at least reaches Quarry Park
-After it does reach QP, it will be a lot more attractive to extend it to Mackenzie Towne for $100M than to extend it at the north end for 10 times as much; [repeat logic every step until we reach Seton]
-Any above-ground route between 16th ave N and Downtown will be a dealbreaker on council; any below-ground route will cost as much as a city-wide BRT network
-Even with dramatically higher provincial and federal commitments, Calgary is unlikely to find the capital to create the complete Green Line for years
-Many things could change in the 10-15 years it will take between stages of construction. That's a whole new political generation. Whatever part we manage to build could end up being the only thing we build for years.

Depressing, I know, but without a major institutional revolution in how these projects are funded (i.e. Plebiscite, city charter, double or triple gas tax, carbon levy, etc), I doubt we'll ever see the Green Line. Meanwhile, do the easy wins and hope for a miracle.