Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[TakeFive]

"Why is Amtrak such a mess?"
May 13 by By Tom Zoellner in WaPo

This is a nice review (not long) of the railroad's and passenger train's American history. Tom is the author of "Train: Riding the Rails that Created the Modern World, from the Trans-Siberian to the Southwest Chief." More importantly, I'll give props to anybody who links to an Arlo Guthrie song (more interesting live version).

[TakeFive]

"Opinion: Prop. 104 is critically important for the future of transportation in Phoenix"
May 11th, 2015 by Sean Sweat, Downtown Devil

Prop. 104 is a 0.7 cent sales tax for transit and streets that will replace the current 0.4 cent sales tax. That increase is less than a penny on a $3 cup of coffee. And it will transform our city in all the right ways.

It will make it possible to build both the South and West extensions of light rail, build a rail connection to ASU’s West campus, and build a streetcar around downtown Phoenix. It will improve the frequencies and hours of our drastically underfunded bus network and create “Bus Rapid Transit” on some of our most heavily used bus routes. It will also add hundreds of miles of bike lanes and repave the city’s aging streets.

Blanca N Jose Infante disagrees. Oh well.

[nickw252]

Mesa is taking the lead to spur downtown development in advance of this summer’s light rail completion to Mesa Drive.

Mayor John Giles announced the city is offering a parcel on the southwest corner of Main and Center streets for a transit-oriented development.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/...ing-downtown-development-in-advance.html

[N830MH]

PHOENIX -
The much-discussed, much-debated, much-maligned, much-praised proposed Loop 202 freeway along the southern border of Ahwatukee is now the target of a lawsuit filed in federal court.

Opponents want a judge to shut down the freeway project, they claim it will do damage to the environment and sacred Indian religious sites.

The project would extend the Loop 202 along Ahwatukee's Southern Border and out to the west side. It is supposed to take trucks off I-10.

Opponents also claim it would be a noisy hazard to their health.

Can't you believe this? They file lawsuit to AZ DOT over Loop 202 construction.

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/story/291038...-group-to-file-lawsuit-over-construction

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by N830MH

Can't you believe this? They file lawsuit to AZ DOT over Loop 202 construction.

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/story/291038...-group-to-file-lawsuit-over-construction

Good. The longer that moronic freeway is tied up in legal battles, the better for everyone. Better for neighborhoods, better for our air quality and much better for our taxpayer dollars.

The Loop 202 is already slated to be one of the most expensive freeways in U.S. history. Think about that for a moment.

Is this alleged "need" that ADOT proposes really a need that justifies one of the most expensive highways ever built? What other solutions could we think of? For that price tag, what else could we build or do to eliminate traffic?

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

Good. The longer that moronic freeway is tied up in legal battles, the better for everyone. Better for neighborhoods, better for our air quality and much better for our taxpayer dollars.

The Loop 202 is already slated to be one of the most expensive freeways in U.S. history. Think about that for a moment.

Is this alleged "need" that ADOT proposes really a need that justifies one of the most expensive highways ever built? What other solutions could we think of? For that price tag, what else could we build or do to eliminate traffic?

Nope. This freeway has been approved by voters twice. How is any potential delay of this freeway better for our neighborhoods? It only conveniences the NIMBYs of Ahwatukee who failed to do their due diligence prior to moving into their homes.

The freeway is expensive, but taxpayers have had extra sales tax collected from them for the past 30 years with the expectation that this freeway would be built. The longer this is held off, the more expensive it will be.

There is a need for this project. Pull out the Environmental Impact Statement or talk to those who have to drive from the West Valley to the Southeast Valley on a regular basis.

What is funny is that if the freeway opponents are successful in shutting down the freeway project, MAG will have a glut of money that it will use to just widen existing freeways. Of course that won't happen because this silly lawsuit won't go anywhere.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

Good. The longer that moronic freeway is tied up in legal battles, the better for everyone. Better for neighborhoods, better for our air quality and much better for our taxpayer dollars.

The Loop 202 is already slated to be one of the most expensive freeways in U.S. history. Think about that for a moment.

Is this alleged "need" that ADOT proposes really a need that justifies one of the most expensive highways ever built? What other solutions could we think of? For that price tag, what else could we build or do to eliminate traffic?

I thought the Big Dig at $15 billion plus interest was the most expensive for about 3 miles. Also, current freeway costs cannOt be compared to previous freeway costs due to the ever present inflation.

Ultimately the 202 - South Mtn Freeway will benefit Metro Phoenix. The areas it will serve have always been suburban and will always be suburban. It'll add capacity to the inner 10 by diverting traffic out of Central Phoenix.

It will benefit all of Phoenix by creating jobs and increasing the population in Laveen.

[combusean]

^ The EIS that preceded the 202's potential construction was a crock of self-serving 🞵🞵🞵🞵.

[TakeFive]

^ Thanks, I needed a good hearty chuckle.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Freeway

Nope. This freeway has been approved by voters twice. How is any potential delay of this freeway better for our neighborhoods?

Delaying when homes will be destroyed, when air pollution will be created and when BILLIONS of tax dollars will be wasted is always a good thing.

Originally Posted by Freeway

The longer this is held off, the more expensive it will be.

Unless the potential cost of it rises so much and its need becomes increasingly unclear, then the project dies and it's much less expensive.

Originally Posted by Freeway

There is a need for this project. Pull out the Environmental Impact Statement or talk to those who have to drive from the West Valley to the Southeast Valley on a regular basis.

You've routinely shown throughout your posting on this forum that you don't have the slightest comprehension of what a successful, fiscally solvent city looks like. So I think we should take your sprawl and freeway loving nonsense opinions with more than just a grain of salt.

Yes the I-10 gets a bit busy for about 4 hours a day, that does not mean the only solution is a huge new multi billion dollar sprawl generating freeway. Do you exhibit such dull, un-creative thinking in all areas of life or only in respect to outmoded 20th century infrastructure 'solutions'?

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

You've routinely shown throughout your posting on this forum that you don't have the slightest comprehension of what a successful, fiscally solvent city looks like. So I think we should take your sprawl and freeway loving nonsense opinions with more than just a grain of salt.

In fairness, this is not a city project. I believe it is MAG, which means its intent is to benefit the entire country. So you can argue for more light rail in Phoenix, but these funds have nothing to do with each other.

The only other alternative, which I'm not against BTW, is that the money be used for commuter rail. That is something that would benefit the entire county and those southeast of Phoenix, just as the freeway would.

I remember seeing the signs for over two decades saying that Pecos would be the future site of the 202. So I have no sympathy for those who chose to ignore them and buy houses there. Having said that, I would prefer rail over this freeway.

[downtownslcresident]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

I remember seeing the signs for over two decades saying that Pecos would be the future site of the 202. So I have no sympathy for those who chose to ignore them and buy houses there. Having said that, I would prefer rail over this freeway.

Unfortunately, the problem with rail in place of this freeway is that rail doesn't accomplish the same goals as the freeway does. Beyond the obvious reasons, this freeway is designed to be a bypass of phoenix for those only travelling through. Rather than having truck traffic or people who are using I-10 to get to points west of Phoenix actually go THROUGH Phoenix, the 202 loop is meant to be an alternative way to bypass the traffic of the city, to minimize the amount of cars on I-10 and the south Phoenix segment of I-17, so that the only people who use those routes are the people who truly do business in and around that area.

Rail unfortunately doesn't address that problem, which is projected to be a big one with the current growth projections for the region. Additionally, as has been mentioned, it helps to displace some of the smog and pollution from the increase in traffic OUT of the city, so that it's not so heavily concentrated in one area and doesn't reach dangerous levels.

I understand people's concerns, and I hear them loud and clear. I really do. But I have to agree that I really don't have any sympathy for them. This has been in the works for years and years, and its been paid for over years and years by the people who voted for it. It's time that it finally happens. There are unavoidable consequences of living in a city. There is simply no escaping traffic, pollution, and as great as rail is (believe me, I want more than anything to see more light rail, as well as communter rail for the region) and as wonderful of benefits that it can bring, it simply isnt the answer 100% of the time.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

In fairness, this is not a city project. I believe it is MAG, which means its intent is to benefit the entire country. So you can argue for more light rail in Phoenix, but these funds have nothing to do with each other.

The only other alternative, which I'm not against BTW, is that the money be used for commuter rail. That is something that would benefit the entire county and those southeast of Phoenix, just as the freeway would.

I remember seeing the signs for over two decades saying that Pecos would be the future site of the 202. So I have no sympathy for those who chose to ignore them and buy houses there. Having said that, I would prefer rail over this freeway.

When I first moved here 2 1/2 years ago, those future 202 signs were one of the first things noticed when driving around to check out the area...and I hadn't even read about the 202 extension yet! So, if I noticed those signs and learned about the 202 exension along Pecos within only a month of living here, I do not feel sorry for anyone that lives in that area when this was proposed around what...20 years ago? These homeowners had PLENTY of notice on this.

Hoover....I completely agree with you on why this highway is a nightmare and should never be built. But as I see it, it's a done deal and there's no stopping it at this point. The state, county and city are set on it. I myself, don't want to see it built, but I do agree more delays at this point will only siphon more $$$ that can go toward other projects, so it's best to get this done instead of dragging it on any longer. In my experience lawsuits against infrastructural projects such as this hardly ever get any where.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by downtownslcresident

Unfortunately, the problem with rail in place of this freeway is that rail doesn't accomplish the same goals as the freeway does. Beyond the obvious reasons, this freeway is designed to be a bypass of phoenix for those only travelling through. Rather than having truck traffic or people who are using I-10 to get to points west of Phoenix actually go THROUGH Phoenix, the 202 loop is meant to be an alternative way to bypass the traffic of the city, to minimize the amount of cars on I-10 and the south Phoenix segment of I-17, so that the only people who use those routes are the people who truly do business in and around that area.

Nice comment. So which came first the chicken or the egg? Well the egg of course.

Metro Phoenix sprawls all over the dang map. The 202 logically addresses a need and should have the benefits you describe.

I've also suggested that by 2020 when the 202 is to be completed that the voters be given an opportunity to reallocate a portion of the half percent sales tax to transit, both light and commuter rail as well as better bus service. This way, going forward both transit and road needs can be expanded, enhanced at the same time. The city of Phoenix will necessarily have to fund some of their own preferences but the addition of a more regional approach would be awesome.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

Hoover....I completely agree with you on why this highway is a nightmare and should never be built. But as I see it, it's a done deal and there's no stopping it at this point. The state, county and city are set on it. I myself, don't want to see it built, but I do agree more delays at this point will only siphon more $$$ that can go toward other projects, so it's best to get this done instead of dragging it on any longer. In my experience lawsuits against infrastructural projects such as this hardly ever get any where.

Lawsuits and community opposition seldom stop projects completely, but they can exert pressure to reach compromise solutions. Right now, ADOT is adamant that only the SMF as currently designed will work. ADOT is wrong, as evidenced by the outdated information and circular reasoning in the environmental impact statement, but the agency isn't going to give any ground unless it has to do so in order to avoid additional litigation and delays. Remember that I-10 was once proposed to be a monstrous elevated freeway towering over Central Phoenix. Opposition led to a sunken freeway covered by Hance Park. It's not an ideal situation, but it's better than what was originally proposed. Likewise, opposition to the SMF is helpful if it forces a re-examination of downgrading the road to a parkway or building on GRIC land, two options that are now off the table.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

When I first moved here 2 1/2 years ago, those future 202 signs were one of the first things noticed when driving around to check out the area...and I hadn't even read about the 202 extension yet! So, if I noticed those signs and learned about the 202 exension along Pecos within only a month of living here, I do not feel sorry for anyone that lives in that area when this was proposed around what...20 years ago? These homeowners had PLENTY of notice on this.(

It was first approved and funded by Maricopa County voters in 1985.

Then it was realized that the projected funds didn't exist and the freeway was scrapped only to be re-funded in the 90s. I believe the 2004 transportation tax extension also included funding for the SM Freeway.

It has a VERY long history and has been public knowledge for 30 years. Anybody that bought a house along the Pecos alignment was well informed before they chose to purchase their home.

[Buckeye Native 001]

My parents live in Ahwatukee (40th Street and Chandler) and I went to high school with people (1998-2002) whose families had houses built along the proposed route of the SMF knowing full well their houses were going to be demolished eventually for the freeway. Some of those families specifically bought houses expecting hefty payouts from ADOT but this was before SCOTUS ruled on eminant domain in 2005 and obviously before the recession.

I guess my point is that I'm not sure how many of those families that moved into mcmansions along the proposed route with dollar signs in their eyes (assuming any of them still live there) still feel that way now under the current rules of eminant domain as well as having to deal with diminished values on their properties thanks to the economy tanking.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

My parents live in Ahwatukee (40th Street and Chandler) and I went to high school with people (1998-2002) whose families had houses built along the proposed route of the SMF knowing full well their houses were going to be demolished eventually for the freeway. Some of those families specifically bought houses expecting hefty payouts from ADOT but this was before SCOTUS ruled on eminant domain in 2005 and obviously before the recession.

I guess my point is that I'm not sure how many of those families that moved into mcmansions along the proposed route with dollar signs in their eyes (assuming any of them still live there) still feel that way now under the current rules of eminant domain as well as having to deal with diminished values on their properties thanks to the economy tanking.

^Interesting and I have no idea when it comes to the court ruling/changes either.

Many homeowners got slightly cheaper houses because of the coming freeway. Not too many homes had to be purchased by ADOT bc the freeway has been on the books for so long.

My mom purchased a house in the early 1990s and the neighborhood aerial maps back then had the "future 202 freeway" drawn in the sales office. Her house is adjacent to the 202, one property/lot away from the noise abatement wall. Being just one house away from the freeway, I can tell you that noise is a non-factor especially with rubberized asphalt. I would think that homes along any of the arterial streets actually deal with much more noise.

[pbenjamin]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the people who have moved to the area over the last several years and are now upset that it is going to be built. I don't object to the route of the freeway. I object to its existence.

[TakeFive]

IIRC, it was an interesting coalition of enviro's and conservatives that resisted freeway construction way back when. Fast forward and at this point Metro Phoenix must have one of the nicest freeway systems in the country - although a couple of Denver bloggers were just discussing Minneapolis-St. Paul's very good system.

Colorado/Denver stands in sharp contrast. Every major project now involves a P3 (which is OK) that includes an HOV/express toll lane(s).
CDOT is preparing to start construction on what will be a (I-70) rebuild comparable to I-10 including a lid for a park. It will be 10 lanes with the interior 4 lanes providing two lanes each way of strictly tolled lanes. On the outside will be 3 FREE lanes each way. It's also a copy of what FDOT has already started with the I-4 in Orlando. Here's an Orlando/I-4 rendering. I had to laugh as when I went to retrieve that from Google images the 1st image I wanted was from one of my previous posts on the Denver transportation thread. I have no idea how such things happen.

After cobbling together some funds for rebuilding half of the U.S. 36 corridor from Denver to Boulder CDOT solicited a P3 for the other half. It will mostly be a 6 lane highway, 3 eaach way with the inside lane being an HOV/express toll lane. Starting in 2017 cars will need 3 occupants to use the HOV lane toll-free. There will be BRT or really upgraded express bus service. When completed end of this year "Plenary Roads" will maintain, repair and collect tolls under a 50 year contract. That's damn near 5 decades.

Big Texas has Big Needs. I read recently that in the Dallas metroplex alone they have a need for $25 billion in new road construction of which only a very small percentage has started. Most of their new roads also include HOV/express lanes if not tolled lanes.

For now at least Metro Phoenix is in great shape at least so far as freeways are concerned.