Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by osmo

really? Quebec is the first place I would think of something like this happening.

Do you mean building à White éléphant arena or seeing people string up their leaders? Or both?

[Oilkountry]

Come on guys? I'm the biggest jest fan out there but not for one second do I think The Jets would be back in the peg if literally Any other place in North America was ready for a team in 2011. Kansas city has arguably one of the nicest arenas in North america with no major tenant. Saskatoon and Hamilton shared the same fate. Just because you build it doesn't mean they will come. Quebec is at the bottom of a growing list. 3 years? Where is this team going to come from? Bettman stated the league is stable. That's not saying every franchise is making money but the league is stable which means they have stable ownership willing and able to take a loss. These pipe dreams of the sunbelt teams moving are just that...a pipe dream. We have seen it in phoenix. If anything the league will protect those markets the most. So where does this Quebec team come from? Definitely not expansion that would surely throw a wrench into the already uneven conferences. Like I said the NHL will have 32 franchises and be sitting pretty with a waiting list of 1-2 markets and Quebec will be on the outside looking in.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Saskatoon and Hamilton shared the same fate. Just because you build it doesn't mean they will come.

Different era. And Hamilton would've had their team if it weren't for Buffalo/Toronto interjecting at the last second.

Quebec is at the bottom of a growing list. 3 years? Where is this team going to come from?

There are big issues in Carolina and Florida and still Arizona. Ya never know.

Bettman stated the league is stable.

I wouldn't take Bettman's word for it. He denied there were issues with the Coyotes and was proven in court that he lied about their situation. He also said there were no issues in Atlanta - and then they wind up relocating to Winnipeg.
His stance is always that the league is stable - but it isn't.

These pipe dreams of the sunbelt teams moving are just that...a pipe dream. We have seen it in phoenix. If anything the league will protect those markets the most.

He can protect those markets all he wants, but if owners have had enough with losing money and if the NHL doesn't want to own the team - they have no choice but to allow relocation. The Coyotes are still there because the City of Glendale are subsidizing the team, and their 5 year/50m losses criteria to bail is getting closer to being met. They're going to hit the 50 million total losses after their 3rd year - and it appears Glendale itself has financial troubles. You can bet the Coyotoes will be relocating in the near future - even if it's not to Quebec.

QC aren't building this size an arena without a good indication they'll be getting a team.

It's happening even if you choose not to believe it. I heard the same thing about Winnipeg, and then it happened.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Come on guys? I'm the biggest jest fan out there but not for one second do I think The Jets would be back in the peg if literally Any other place in North America was ready for a team in 2011. Kansas city has arguably one of the nicest arenas in North america with no major tenant. Saskatoon and Hamilton shared the same fate. Just because you build it doesn't mean they will come. Quebec is at the bottom of a growing list. 3 years? Where is this team going to come from? Bettman stated the league is stable. That's not saying every franchise is making money but the league is stable which means they have stable ownership willing and able to take a loss. These pipe dreams of the sunbelt teams moving are just that...a pipe dream. We have seen it in phoenix. If anything the league will protect those markets the most. So where does this Quebec team come from? Definitely not expansion that would surely throw a wrench into the already uneven conferences. Like I said the NHL will have 32 franchises and be sitting pretty with a waiting list of 1-2 markets and Quebec will be on the outside looking in.

You're saying exactly what people said about Winnipeg. And remember, the Thrashers didn't even enter into the conversation in a major way until the story of the move was broken by Stephen Brunt four years ago this month. Everyone was fixated on the Coyotes, to the point that the Winnipeg news media sent reporters down to cover council meetings in Glendale to find out what was happening to the team. And it almost was the Coyotes until a last minute chain of events led them to staying. But then another team popped up soon thereafter and the rest is history.

There are a few teams currently in US markets that could realistically wind up in Quebec's hands.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

You're saying exactly what people said about Winnipeg. And remember, the Thrashers didn't even enter into the conversation in a major way until the story of the move was broken by Stephen Brunt four years ago this month. Everyone was fixated on the Coyotes, to the point that the Winnipeg news media sent reporters down to cover council meetings in Glendale to find out what was happening to the team. And it almost was the Coyotes until a last minute chain of events led them to staying. But then another team popped up soon thereafter and the rest is history.

There are a few teams currently in US markets that could realistically wind up in Quebec's hands.

Absolutely! But if and only if Vegas and Seattle are part of the league by then. And also only if another market in the GTA or U.S. Doesn't become available. You cant compare this to Winnipeg. Their was pretty much 2 teams available and only 1 place to put it in 2011. Not only that their was also public dialog between true north and the NHL. The league talked about Winnipeg in great detail. Now their is no teams available and 3-4 places to put one.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

You're saying exactly what people said about Winnipeg. And remember, the Thrashers didn't even enter into the conversation in a major way until the story of the move was broken by Stephen Brunt four years ago this month. Everyone was fixated on the Coyotes, to the point that the Winnipeg news media sent reporters down to cover council meetings in Glendale to find out what was happening to the team. And it almost was the Coyotes until a last minute chain of events led them to staying. But then another team popped up soon thereafter and the rest is history.

There are a few teams currently in US markets that could realistically wind up in Quebec's hands.

I agree with you. On a public level, the relocation of the Thrashers almost came out of nowhere. Sure there were rumblings from True North about become NHL owners, the Winnipeg media pestered the NHL brass who hummed and hawed... all of which is very similar to what is going on with Quebec City. Though not identical of course.

And of course Bettman has always stuck to the party line that all teams in the league are stable. Even the Coyotes.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I agree with you. On a public level, the relocation of the Thrashers almost came out of nowhere. Sure there were rumblings from True North about become NHL owners, the Winnipeg media pestered the NHL brass who hummed and hawed... all of which is very similar to what is going on with Quebec City. Though not identical of course.

And of course Bettman has always stuck to the party line that all teams in the league are stable. Even the Coyotes.

According to the "NHL insiders", it was never going to happen... until the week that it happened. I still remember the self-styled NHL insider Darren Dreger telling a host on TSN 1290 that the NHL wasn't coming back to Winnipeg no more than a couple of weeks before the news dropped. And no one was expecting Atlanta. There were only vague hints being dropped at the time that the Thrashers were in play... everyone was thinking Coyotes.

Vegas as a market is lukewarm at best, and Seattle faces its own challenges... they need a rink, and the focus there seems to be more on getting a NBA team anyway. Kansas City is questionable too. Toronto would be a winner hands down, but again, can a team get past the obvious opposition from the Leafs and to a lesser extent, the Sabres? Quebec actually stacks up quite well when you compare it to the other potential NHL markets.

[Acajack]

If someone was interested in owning an NHL team in Kansas City it would be there already.

Which goes to show just how few suitors they have down in the States.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Do you mean building à White éléphant arena or seeing people string up their leaders? Or both?

Thanks for the coffee all over my desk.

There are two parts to the conversation. I believe almost everyone here wants a franchise in Quebec. The actual question is can they get one with the climate of the NHL bureaucracy the way it currently stands? I think people are leaning towards no, which is sad, but not unpredictable. Gary in his quiet hours is fuming at the success of Winnipeg because it is the total "I told you so" he didn't want. As the leader he should be towing the franchises are healthy line because frankly there is nothing for him to win with saying Phoenix/Arizona/The American SouthWest (if we keep expanding the name maybe more people will trek to Glendale to see this) is a boat anchor of a franchise which currently now has the problem that the only reason the current owners keep owning the team is about to go in the shitter in a lawsuit. It's a great business model, but the fact that Gary has allowed this to go on when there's owners in Canada and arenas in Canada that would take this in a heartbeat is that Canada is the LAST place Gary wants to put a team. If that isn't obvious to people by now, I don't know what is.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If someone was interested in owning an NHL team in Kansas City it would be there already.

Which goes to show just how few suitors they have down in the States.

Exactly. What has changed between 2010 and now that all of a sudden a NHL team in KC is supposedly a realistic prospect? Nothing that I'm aware of.

On a related note, I find it somehow fascinating when cities build expensive and elaborate venues without any significant sports tenants like Kansas City and Tulsa did. Tulsa has the WNBA and ECHL playing in their building, but Sprint Center has nothing... just concerts and one-off sports events. It's weird.

[drew]

Originally Posted by esquire

Quebec actually stacks up quite well when you compare it to the other potential NHL markets.

Except when you consider the amount of divisional shifting that will need to take place to even out the teams. I think the NHL would prefer to keep West teams in the west, as well as push expansion in the West (currently 14 teams in the west versus 16 in the east)

Quebec and it's ownership group can likley sit waiting for an emergency outlet (a la Winnipeg), but until that happens, expansion to Quebec would probably only happen once Vegas and Seattle are figured out.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Thanks for the coffee all over my desk.

There are two parts to the conversation. I believe almost everyone here wants a franchise in Quebec. The actual question is can they get one with the climate of the NHL bureaucracy the way it currently stands? I think people are leaning towards no, which is sad, but not unpredictable. Gary in his quiet hours is fuming at the success of Winnipeg because it is the total "I told you so" he didn't want. As the leader he should be towing the franchises are healthy line because frankly there is nothing for him to win with saying Phoenix/Arizona/The American SouthWest (if we keep expanding the name maybe more people will trek to Glendale to see this) is a boat anchor of a franchise which currently now has the problem that the only reason the current owners keep owning the team is about to go in the shitter in a lawsuit. It's a great business model, but the fact that Gary has allowed this to go on when there's owners in Canada and arenas in Canada that would take this in a heartbeat is that Canada is the LAST place Gary wants to put a team. If that isn't obvious to people by now, I don't know what is.

The NHL brass didn't want a team in Winnipeg at all but there is an NHL team in Winnipeg at the moment.

Quebec City has all of the ducks lined up like no other potential NHL city. But it's in the wrong country (in the eyes of the NHL).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by drew

Except when you consider the amount of divisional shifting that will need to take place to even out the teams. I think the NHL would prefer to keep West teams in the west, as well as push expansion in the West (currently 14 teams in the west versus 16 in the east)

Quebec and it's ownership group can likley sit waiting for an emergency outlet (a la Winnipeg), but until that happens, expansion to Quebec would probably only happen once Vegas and Seattle are figured out.

This is quite true.

Another thing though is that of all the potential markets, Quebec City is likely by far the one where the owner is going to be most willing to pay an expansion fee, which is much more expensive (and much more lucrative for the existing NHL owners than a relocation fee).

[Wahoo McDaniel]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec City has all of the ducks lined up like no other potential NHL city. But it's in the wrong country (in the eyes of the NHL).

"it's in the wrong country" - the story of Quebec's life and the basis of all it's self pity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Wahoo McDaniel

"it's in the wrong country" - the story of Quebec's life and the basis of all it's self pity

Hmm... the country I was talking about was Canada (as opposed to the U.S.)

Some people are just... I dunno man...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

Except when you consider the amount of divisional shifting that will need to take place to even out the teams. I think the NHL would prefer to keep West teams in the west, as well as push expansion in the West (currently 14 teams in the west versus 16 in the east)

Quebec and it's ownership group can likley sit waiting for an emergency outlet (a la Winnipeg), but until that happens, expansion to Quebec would probably only happen once Vegas and Seattle are figured out.

Would the NHL really elevate a less desirable market on the basis of the fact that it's closer to the west coast than Quebec? I have my doubts. NHL geographic designations strike me as rather arbitrary... I mean, would the world really end if Columbus got shifted to the west and balance was restored?

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by esquire

On a related note, I find it somehow fascinating when cities build expensive and elaborate venues without any significant sports tenants like Kansas City and Tulsa did.

The Sprint Center is consistently in the top 10 busiest arenas in the US.

I don't think they built the arena on the promise/hope of an NHL or NBA team becoming a tenant, as they knew they'd be making money off the arena regardless. An NHL and/or NBA team would just be icing on the cake.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Berklon

The Sprint Center is consistently in the top 10 busiest arenas in the US.

I don't think they built the arena on the promise/hope of an NHL or NBA team becoming a tenant, as they knew they'd be making money off the arena regardless. An NHL and/or NBA team would just be icing on the cake.

The people in QC have also said the new arena will make money even without an NHL team, although from an "optics" point of view in the eyes of the public the whole thing will be deemed a failure if they don't get a club within a couple of years.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Would the NHL really elevate a less desirable market on the basis of the fact that it's closer to the west coast than Quebec? I have my doubts. NHL geographic designations strike me as rather arbitrary... I mean, would the world really end if Columbus got shifted to the west and balance was restored?

Another factor to consider is how much assurance Bettman will have to give the owners that new teams like Vegas wouldn't be Coyotes 2.0 that they will have to prop up financially for years. Most of the owners are growing tired of propping up money-losing teams and there will be that perceived danger with Vegas. Not so much with Seattle and not at all with Quebec City of course.

Although "warm climate" doesn't always = "money loser".

Minnesota has lost a ton of money for example.

But certainly the owners are looking for new teams that will be guaranteed money-makers, if at all possible.

[drew]

Originally Posted by esquire

Would the NHL really elevate a less desirable market on the basis of the fact that it's closer to the west coast than Quebec? I have my doubts. NHL geographic designations strike me as rather arbitrary... I mean, would the world really end if Columbus got shifted to the west and balance was restored?

Balance isn't restored, its still 16 versus 14, and therefore harder to make playoffs in the East.

I am just pointing out, that this is something that works against Quebec, regardless of how good a market we know it will be.

IMO, it just means Quebec will only be rolled out as part of a larger expansion including cities in the West (and will need to wait till then, that could be many years) or it has to wait out failure of another franchise, and be ready to go, like TNSE was with Winnipeg.

The fact Quebec is seemingly ready and willing to pay to get the franchise IMO also works against them, as the NHL knows they have a sure thing, squirreled away until its required. Quebec can wait until the NHL figures out some of the question marks in the west (Seattle, LV).