Rapid Transit

[SteelTown]

About friggin time

Province set to unveil LRT game-changer for Hamilton
Funding commitment is imminent, sources say, as minister Del Duca prepares to visit city

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/56...-for-hamilton/

The province is close to announcing a game-changing commitment to light rail transit in Hamilton, The Spectator has learned.

Sources at both levels of government say a transit funding commitment is imminent — perhaps as early as next week — but hinges on overcoming serious logistical hurdles.

A spokesperson for Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca wouldn't comment on the specific timing or substance of the anticipated announcement, but promised the minister "will be in the city in the coming weeks to discuss what Ontario's … transit and transportation infrastructure plan means for the residents of Hamilton."

The province wants to green-light part or all of the city's requested $811-million LRT line — but potentially deal-breaking details still need to be nailed down, said sources who didn't want to be identified due to the sensitivity of the discussions.

A transit garage and GO expansion have also been discussed as additional or alternative announcements. If all goes well, a visit is expected any time between next week and early June.

Premier Kathleen Wynne raised eyebrows when she spoke in the legislature about the importance of working with Hamilton to "build that LRT."

She later corrected the record to say she meant "rapid transit."

The city asked for both $811 million for LRT and $302 million for express buses and a maintenance facility in advance of the provincial budget.

Sources say a critical question is whether there's enough cash to build LRT all the way from McMaster University to Eastgate Square — especially given the province is insisting on a spur-line connecting to at least one GO station.

It's not clear how much money the province has to spare for Hamilton after recently committing more than $15 billion to GO electrification and LRT in Mississauga.

But the $811-million LRT estimate is based on 2011 dollars and city staff have warned each year of delay could add two per cent to the total capital cost. The provincial budget suggests Hamilton's transit cash won't be doled out before 2018 and the city still needs years of design work on LRT.

Early documents for the city's LRT project estimated a build from McMaster to Ottawa Street, by comparison, would cost closer to $550 million.

Another issue is whether the HSR or Metrolinx should run the LRT line along the Main-King-Queenston corridor, by far the biggest revenue producer among city transit routes.

The city's bus request, meanwhile, may not easily fit under the mandate of the province's 10-year, $16-billion rapid transit funding plan, but sources said a transit maintenance facility hasn't been ruled out.

It's also possible a timing or funding announcement on extending GO train service to the east city will be included in the minister's visit.

Metrolinx has previously confirmed a ballpark cost of about $150 million to extend GO Train service and build a new station near Centennial Parkway.

It's uncertain how an increasingly skeptical and divided council will react to a long-sought cash commitment to LRT, on a modified route or not. Several current councillors campaigned against light rail in the recent municipal election.

The city has also committed to letting a citizen panel study rapid transit and related area rating issues this year.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

'...but hinges on overcoming serious logistical hurdles.'

Anyone know what this is referring to?

[SteelTown]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

'...but hinges on overcoming serious logistical hurdles.'

Anyone know what this is referring to?

From the article:

Sources say a critical question is whether there's enough cash to build LRT all the way from McMaster University to Eastgate Square — especially given the province is insisting on a spur-line connecting to at least one GO station.

[HillStreetBlues]

I was really wondering this morning how this was the front page, above-the-fold material. The story is about a rumour, and one that we've heard before: that the province will announce...something...to do with LRT...soon.

It also seems absolutely ridiculous to me that the premiere or the Minister of Anything would at this point suggest that the routing needs to be changed, when actual planners have been paid to come up with an actual planned route.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

From the article:

Sources say a critical question is whether there's enough cash to build LRT all the way from McMaster University to Eastgate Square — especially given the province is insisting on a spur-line connecting to at least one GO station.

I wondered if that was what it was but does a spur to the GO station really constitute a 'serious logistical hurdle'?

[SteelTown]

Yeah, means they'll have to funnel money into making a spur line and likely cutting the Eastern terminal section away from Eastgate, perhaps ends at Ottawa St.

Having a spur line to Hunter GO Station probably won't cost much since it's closer to King. But if any station the Harbour West GO Station is likely to have all day GO Train service so it'll be pricey having a spur line up to the Harbour West GO Station, gonna have to pass several blocks, Wilson, Cannon, Barton and basically to Strachan.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

^Interesting. Thanks for clarifying.

I wonder then if this will end up being a line from McMaster to the city centre including a loop linking the two GO stations.

[Beedok]

If you compare the size of Mississauga 's Square One LRT loop around to downtown Hamilton you could have a comparable LRT loop go up Victoria, down Barton a bit, pop up to the station, and back down James North. Or swing up with John or Bay for a shorter loop. It doesn't seem like a huge issue. Maybe a few minutes lost, but surely having LRT along James North and other streets is roughly equal to a few extra minutes of commute?

[HillStreetBlues]

Mississauga’s loop functions like a branch, doesn’t it? Some trains will take the Downtown Alignment, which takes the loop to Square One; and others will take the Hurontario alignment, which does not take the loop. This cuts frequency (if you happen to be using the stops at either Square One, or the bypassed stop on the Hurtontario alignment) which is not ideal. I’m not sure if that’s what you’re proposing, Beedok (two alignments- one down King and one that loops to Barton). I believe that’s how Hurontario will work.

I thought that the routing was set on King, but maybe everything’s less defined than I thought. If we’re talking Main, which would be better than King for a train in a lot of ways, then it is a very short walk from Main to the Hunter Go Station. If it’s King, it’s still very walkable to both, or a quick connection on a James Street bus. I don’t see why we need to have loops and things that reduce either speed or frequency, and thus utility.

[SteelTown]

I'd take B-Line LRT from McMaster to Ottawa St and have separate A-Line LRT from downtown to Harbour West GO Station.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

Mississauga’s loop functions like a branch, doesn’t it? Some trains will take the Downtown Alignment, which takes the loop to Square One; and others will take the Hurontario alignment, which does not take the loop. This cuts frequency (if you happen to be using the stops at either Square One, or the bypassed stop on the Hurtontario alignment) which is not ideal. I’m not sure if that’s what you’re proposing, Beedok (two alignments- one down King and one that loops to Barton). I believe that’s how Hurontario will work.

I thought that the routing was set on King, but maybe everything’s less defined than I thought. If we’re talking Main, which would be better than King for a train in a lot of ways, then it is a very short walk from Main to the Hunter Go Station. If it’s King, it’s still very walkable to both, or a quick connection on a James Street bus. I don’t see why we need to have loops and things that reduce either speed or frequency, and thus utility.

I was just trying to say that if Mississauga is doing a loop Hamilton could too. There's only a few trains a day, so there bulk of trains would go direct. Getting some connection to the more northern bits seem decent though, and if that's what's need to get the funding it isn't too bad an issue.

[LikeHamilton]

I would love it to go down Wellington to the new go station and connect the General Hospital. Wellington was the last stop before Gore Park anyway. I always thought that the section on James from Cannon to Augusta (and maybe now from the West Harbour GO Station to Augusta) and on King from Gore Park to Queen should be underground like a subway (a hybrid system) There could be an underground tunnel walking/moving sidewalk system to connect the GO Center and McNab Terminal to the LRT system. This would connect both GO Stations and both bus terminals. This would also accommodate the A-line route.

From the Delta to the 403 it would work just fine with it one-way on King and returning on Main. The city hall bureaucrat’s took the easy way out and drew straight lines for the route. It can make turns!

As to the government coming to make an announcement, don’t hold your breath. It is a cabinet minister. He will announce less, not what we want, fazed it over 50 years, keyed to something we can’t or won’t deliver (and they know that). If they were to be announcing what we want and paying over a billion dollars for it, the premier herself would be here for the photo op!

I hope I'm wrong!

[fuller]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

^Interesting. Thanks for clarifying.

I wonder then if this will end up being a line from McMaster to the city centre including a loop linking the two GO stations.

I do believe you've nailed it, sir.

Reading between the lines, that's what I came up with after following this mobius decision loop in recent months. An altered plan allows for implementation of LRT in the undisputed wards of 1 and 2, maybe 3 as well, while keeping it out of uncertain 4 and unwilling 5.

There should be enough money to build the western portion of the line and also connect one or both of the GO stations to this new stub with a loop. Then maybe there will also be enough to build the necessary Bus/LRT/'Transit' Maintenance Facility that nobody seems to want.

I thought I earlier heard a pol make a slip/hint indicating the possibility of a new transit terminal on Jackson Street but that may have been a mere typo. Or maybe there will be some sort of consolidation of services there, in that group of parking lots? Basically a replacement for the former Terminal Towers?

[Beedok]

Here's a couple ideas.

Terrible?

EDIT: Oops, forgot to connect the eastbound to the GO station loop. It's supposed to be.

[oldcoote]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

I'd take B-Line LRT from McMaster to Ottawa St and have separate A-Line LRT from downtown to Harbour West GO Station.

This makes the most sense, cost wise.

[HillStreetBlues]

I think that a serious assessment of Upper James would show that it does not have the density required to support rapid transit. Definitely not moreso than King Street East. There aren’t even very many apartment buildings along Upper James, and those that are there are set back from the road and not conducive to walking and transit. If we take the A Line over the B Line East, that would be a very bad move.

(If what was meant was a separate A Line just from James and Strachan down to, say, St. Joseph’s, then I agree that might make sense.)

[mattgrande]

I really liked that second, Beedok.

[flar]

Originally Posted by fuller

I do believe you've nailed it, sir.

Reading between the lines, that's what I came up with after following this mobius decision loop in recent months. An altered plan allows for implementation of LRT in the undisputed wards of 1 and 2, maybe 3 as well, while keeping it out of uncertain 4 and unwilling 5.

There should be enough money to build the western portion of the line and also connect one or both of the GO stations to this new stub with a loop. Then maybe there will also be enough to build the necessary Bus/LRT/'Transit' Maintenance Facility that nobody seems to want.

I thought I earlier heard a pol make a slip/hint indicating the possibility of a new transit terminal on Jackson Street but that may have been a mere typo. Or maybe there will be some sort of consolidation of services there, in that group of parking lots? Basically a replacement for the former Terminal Towers?

That seems to be what the province is going for.

It would essentially be a commuter line for people in the Western GTA getting to and from Mac via GO/LRT. Would also work for Mac students living between Mac and downtown.

Would be an improvement for people commuting to Mac from the Mountain; however, it still leaves the problem of infrequent/unreliable service from the Mountain to the LRT transfer.

Wouldn't do much for others around this city, especially car-less people in the lower city. I would love to see a line from Dundas to Stoney Creek, but this doesn't seem possible.

[matt602]

Making the LRT anything less than Eastgate to McMaster makes the entire thing pointless, as far as I'm concerned. There are tons of McMaster students who I see boarding the B-Line bus at Eastgate who probably come in from Stoney Creek. Sometimes it's full already by the time it pulls up at Nash Road toward downtown.

If we make the LRT route stubby or make it go all over the place, it loses it's "express" nature and just becomes a mostly useless white elephant that we'll be stuck with for years until it's expanded to usefulness. Do it right the first time.

[Jon Dalton]

I hope they don't cut the LRT short as it ought to cover the current B-line route at least. The Queenston Road area is has lots of apartments right on the route and some lower income areas so it's important that it's adequately served. Stopping at Ottawa St. and then having a bus transfer would be pretty inconvenient. Eastgate is a major transit hub where people are used to switching buses to go further in Stoney Creek. It's also a major centre of employment and many rely on transit to get there. Cutting out the east portion of the LRT so the GTA commuting class saves a few minutes would have bad optics and social policy implications.