HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Pacific West > Portland > General Discussion


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted May 7, 2015, 7:04 AM
davehogan davehogan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife View Post
San Diego has multiple airports?
In the city limits: Lindbergh (SAN), North Island, MCAS Miramar, Brown Field, Montgomery Field.

Near the city/county, but not in the city of SD: Tijuana, Camp Pendleton, El Cajon/Gillespe, McClellan-Palomar, Ramona.

Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. No disrespect meant, but it's a center of aviation for a reason. That's just the airports in San Diego County/accessible from bridges in the county. That ignores Riverside, Orange, LA, etc counties. SoCal was/is a hotbed for aviation for lots of reasons.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted May 7, 2015, 7:07 AM
davehogan davehogan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
Are you saying that height limits are hurting San Diego's density? I don't know the city very well (I know TJ a bit better), but from your description of 'tons of dense, walkable neighborhoods', it doesn't sound like they're managing poorly. And then there's TJ, which is completely lowrise and far denser than SD... though comparisons are complicated, obviously.
San Diego was moving in a "City of Villages" model when I lived there, partially inspired by Portland. They also have plenty of walkable neighborhoods in areas like Hillcrest, North Park, East Village, Little Italy, etc.

They have tons of suburbs that are getting more dense near transit/future transit (SDSU, Mira Mesa, etc), but they have a bit of a gap to catch up on.

TJ is denser, but it also has less of the amenities SAN has and other complications like being in Mexico.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted May 7, 2015, 7:20 PM
urbanlife's Avatar
urbanlife urbanlife is offline
A before E
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 11,973
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehogan View Post
In the city limits: Lindbergh (SAN), North Island, MCAS Miramar, Brown Field, Montgomery Field.

Near the city/county, but not in the city of SD: Tijuana, Camp Pendleton, El Cajon/Gillespe, McClellan-Palomar, Ramona.

Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. No disrespect meant, but it's a center of aviation for a reason. That's just the airports in San Diego County/accessible from bridges in the county. That ignores Riverside, Orange, LA, etc counties. SoCal was/is a hotbed for aviation for lots of reasons.
No offense taken, I just wouldn't count small municipal airports and military airports with the area having multiple airports. Which I am also not trying to compare the two city metros based on their number of airports....I just thought that was an odd statement to make about San Diego.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted May 7, 2015, 10:10 PM
spoonman's Avatar
spoonman spoonman is offline
SD/OC
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,430
San Diego has a few different options for commercial airports outside of using SAN.



United Airlines has had service (and American Eagle up until the last recession) out of Carlsbad for many many years, which just ended with the change of aircraft (the new aircraft type is no longer compatible with the short runway). Service will likely resume once the runway extension has been completed.



Also, the San Diego cross-border terminal with Tijuana Int'l is almost completed. This terminal will allow San Diego travelers to enter TIJ from the US side of the border in San Ysidro.


Last edited by spoonman; May 8, 2015 at 4:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted May 8, 2015, 1:40 PM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
obit anus, abit onus
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: London
Posts: 802
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonman View Post
Also, the San Diego cross-border terminal with Tijuana Int'l is almost completed. This terminal will allow San Diego travelers to enter TIJ from the US side of the border in San Ysidro.
And vice-versa!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted May 8, 2015, 5:07 PM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland
Posts: 619
I've read various places that areas like NW are actually lower density now than they once were due to families filtering out? Is this the case? I read that the new timber mid-rise construction is going to be aimed at providing density housing for families... I think this is an important key to making our city a working community. Right now, inner east Portland has the density of a bedroom community with rapidly inflating rents.

Single family homes need to go (be razed) in many cases for the better of the city, our surrounding farmland, and our ecology. We need to prevent sprawl.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted May 8, 2015, 5:35 PM
rsbear's Avatar
rsbear rsbear is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas - Hill Country
Posts: 826
[/QUOTE]Single family homes need to go (be razed) in many cases for the better of the city, our surrounding farmland, and our ecology. We need to prevent sprawl.[/QUOTE]

Not a snowball's chance in hell that this will happen large-scale in Portland in the near future.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted May 10, 2015, 8:51 AM
davehogan davehogan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife View Post
No offense taken, I just wouldn't count small municipal airports and military airports with the area having multiple airports. Which I am also not trying to compare the two city metros based on their number of airports....I just thought that was an odd statement to make about San Diego.
The airfields take up a lot of real estate which pushes down population density numbers. Having two military airports (and the empty real estate of East Miramar as a training grounds), plus SAN, plus a cargo/freight airport (Brown Field) plus a municipal airport all within city limits, in addition to those flight paths, helps to limit densities.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted May 12, 2015, 11:18 PM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland
Posts: 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehogan View Post
The airfields take up a lot of real estate which pushes down population density numbers. Having two military airports (and the empty real estate of East Miramar as a training grounds), plus SAN, plus a cargo/freight airport (Brown Field) plus a municipal airport all within city limits, in addition to those flight paths, helps to limit densities.
All of this discussion makes me wish someone could use the 2014 census estimates and present us a methodology and provide a new list of numbers for "true density."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 12:19 AM
2oh1's Avatar
2oh1 2oh1 is offline
9-7-2oh1-!
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: downtown Portland
Posts: 2,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY View Post
All of this discussion makes me wish someone could use the 2014 census estimates and present us a methodology and provide a new list of numbers for "true density."
I don't think there's ever going to be a number that truly reflects density in a meaningful way. As a number, it's interesting but not particularly useful for a variety of reasons. Parks decrease density, but only a fool would argue against parks in order to achieve greater density, since parks increase quality of life. I don't care if our number is higher or lower than other cities. Portland versus Aloha is a perfect example of the silliness of judging density as a number rather than in terms of quality of life, or even as a way to judge how urban Portland is. Density, as a number should not be what matters.

Portland's density is going to follow the pattern we've seen in The Pearl, South Waterfront, inner SE and Lloyd, among other places, where opportunity leads to bursts of density increases. Conway. Burnside bridgehead. The post office site in the Pearl. Someday, we'll see great increases in density north of Thurman in NW, and even in Goose Hollow. There's no shortage of vacant lots and surface parking lots downtown. I sure wish they'd fill in faster, but it is happening... slowly but surely. I'd assume most of us here have known for at least a decade that Lloyd and inner SE were ripe with potential, and it's great to see that finally beginning to materialize.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 12:27 AM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland
Posts: 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2oh1 View Post
I don't think there's ever going to be a number that truly reflects density in a meaningful way. As a number, it's interesting but not particularly useful for a variety of reasons. Parks decrease density, but only a fool would argue against parks in order to achieve greater density, since parks increase quality of life. I don't care if our number is higher or lower than other cities. Portland versus Aloha is a perfect example of the silliness of judging density as a number rather than in terms of quality of life, or even as a way to judge how urban Portland is. Density, as a number should not be what matters.

Portland's density is going to follow the pattern we've seen in The Pearl, South Waterfront, inner SE and Lloyd, among other places, where opportunity leads to bursts of density increases. Conway. Burnside bridgehead. The post office site in the Pearl. Someday, we'll see great increases in density north of Thurman in NW, and even in Goose Hollow. There's no shortage of vacant lots and surface parking lots downtown. I sure wish they'd fill in faster, but it is happening... slowly but surely. I'd assume most of us here have known for at least a decade that Lloyd and inner SE were ripe with potential, and it's great to see that finally beginning to materialize.
We must consider affordability here. Aloha is more affordable than Portland because it's less desirable. We need a way to make neighborhoods inclusive in terms of income.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 1:24 AM
65MAX's Avatar
65MAX 65MAX is online now
Karma Police
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: People's Republic of Portland
Posts: 2,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY View Post
We must consider affordability here. Aloha is more affordable than Portland because it's less desirable. We need a way to make neighborhoods inclusive in terms of income.
So make Portland LESS desirable? That's really the only way to squelch demand.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 1:29 AM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland
Posts: 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65MAX View Post
So make Portland LESS desirable? That's really the only way to squelch demand.
There's no conclusive evidence an income inclusive neighborhood will stifle demand whatsoever. We can subsidize low and middle income housing in with market rate in every new development. This has been shown not to decrease development.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 2:23 AM
65MAX's Avatar
65MAX 65MAX is online now
Karma Police
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: People's Republic of Portland
Posts: 2,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY View Post
There's no conclusive evidence an income inclusive neighborhood will stifle demand whatsoever. We can subsidize low and middle income housing in with market rate in every new development. This has been shown not to decrease development.
I said nothing about income inclusivity. You drew a direct comparison with Aloha being less desirable and therefore more affordable. But desirability has only a tangential relationship to affordability. It's the lack of supply that is driving housing prices higher in Portland (and for that matter, the suburbs as well).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 2:26 AM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland
Posts: 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65MAX View Post
I said nothing about income inclusivity. You drew a direct comparison with Aloha being less desirable and therefore more affordable. But desirability has only a tangential relationship to affordability. It's the lack of supply that is driving housing prices higher in Portland (and for that matter, the suburbs as well).
I agree about a lack of supply. We need more density in the city.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 3:41 AM
2oh1's Avatar
2oh1 2oh1 is offline
9-7-2oh1-!
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: downtown Portland
Posts: 2,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY View Post
I agree about a lack of supply. We need more density in the city.
You keep using that word, but what precisely is it that you want? Ladd's Addition isn't going to become a high rise district. Nor should it. But we're seeing great increases in density in specific neighborhoods where it makes sense. Compare the Pearl in 1995 to the Pearl in 2015. BOOM! Consider Lloyd in 2010 compared to what it's probably going to be in 2030. BOOM! Consider the other examples I gave in my previous post. Inner SE. South Waterfront. You keep saying Portland needs more density more density more density, but it cannot happen overnight, though it absolutely positively definitely is happening. Look at all of the high rises downtown, west of the Park Blocks, and thin about how many of them were there prior to 1995. Not many. Eliot Tower, Benson Tower, Ladd Tower, the Safeway on Jefferson, the St. Francis, the St. James, Cornerstone Condos, The Mosaic, and a slew of new buildings going up closer to market. And that's just one location as an example.

Conway. Holy cow, look at everything that's going up over there. That's major density replacing nothingness.

Portland is seeing great increases in density. The number you see in statistics isn't going to change fast, but if you look around at real life examples, you'll see an abundance of huge increases in density.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 4:06 AM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland
Posts: 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2oh1 View Post
You keep using that word, but what precisely is it that you want? Ladd's Addition isn't going to become a high rise district. Nor should it. But we're seeing great increases in density in specific neighborhoods where it makes sense. Compare the Pearl in 1995 to the Pearl in 2015. BOOM! Consider Lloyd in 2010 compared to what it's probably going to be in 2030. BOOM! Consider the other examples I gave in my previous post. Inner SE. South Waterfront. You keep saying Portland needs more density more density more density, but it cannot happen overnight, though it absolutely positively definitely is happening. Look at all of the high rises downtown, west of the Park Blocks, and thin about how many of them were there prior to 1995. Not many. Eliot Tower, Benson Tower, Ladd Tower, the Safeway on Jefferson, the St. Francis, the St. James, Cornerstone Condos, The Mosaic, and a slew of new buildings going up closer to market. And that's just one location as an example.

Conway. Holy cow, look at everything that's going up over there. That's major density replacing nothingness.

Portland is seeing great increases in density. The number you see in statistics isn't going to change fast, but if you look around at real life examples, you'll see an abundance of huge increases in density.
Still not enough to meet demand for our shortage, and we need to be implementing more inclusionary policies to avoid income exclusive communities-- that stifles vibrancy of culture in our city.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 4:28 AM
PacificNW PacificNW is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY View Post
Still not enough to meet demand for our shortage, and we need to be implementing more inclusionary policies to avoid income exclusive communities-- that stifles vibrancy of culture in our city.
Isn't there a bill working its way through the state legislature that, if passed, would allow cities to implement inclusionary development policies?

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/05/inclusionary_zoning_bill_will.html
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 4:51 AM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland
Posts: 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by PacificNW View Post
Isn't there a bill working its way through the state legislature that, if passed, would allow cities to implement inclusionary development policies?

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/05/inclusionary_zoning_bill_will.html
I thought it had been passed, but I was under the impression it should happen. That means Portland should step up now instead of allowing tons of market rate gated buildings.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 7:07 AM
2oh1's Avatar
2oh1 2oh1 is offline
9-7-2oh1-!
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: downtown Portland
Posts: 2,523
Before I even begin, I want to make it clear that:
I want greater density.
I want more housing.
I want more mass transit.
I want more of all of the things that come with creating an active, vibrant, urban neighborhood. Give me more, More, MORE!

That being said, this whole "more density" thing grows tiresome, because it's so vague, and though I hate to say it since your heart is in the right place, it's so misguided.

"More density" lacks any context other than saying you want a bigger number on a sheet of paper that denotes Portland's population density, as if that's a cure-all for the rapidly increasing cost of housing. It's not. In fact, greater density has the opposite effect.

Nothing draws a crowd like a crowd.
Nothing increases competition like competition.

As more people move into a neighborhood - thus increasing density - they also bring an increased demand for goods and services. That means increasing opportunities for retail to profit. That means more bars and pubs, restaurants and shops, not to mention groceries, libraries, pharmacies, mass transit... you name it. And as all of that stuff comes to a neighborhood, the neighborhood becomes even more of a great place to live, which means more people will want to live there, which means increasing competition for apartments, which means increasing opportunities for landlords to jack up rent knowing they'll get whatever they ask for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY View Post
Still not enough to meet demand for our shortage, and
...our shortage of what, precisely? Be specific. Are you talking about housing in general? Or are you talking about AFFORDABLE housing? I ask because there is no shortage of housing. We don't have people living in hotels waiting for anything available to open up. We do have a shortage of affordable housing, but increasing density (which is a generational task! Come on now!) is NOT going to bring down the price of rent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY View Post
and we need to be implementing more inclusionary policies to avoid income exclusive communities-- that stifles vibrancy of culture in our city.
If we manage to build enough high rise apartments and condos in Portland to drastically increase our city's density over a period of a decade or even twenty years, the "culture in our city" as we know it would be lost. Portland wouldn't be the Portland we recognize anymore. The city's culture has already dramatically changed over the past two decades. I'm not complaining, mind you. I'm just stating a fact. Using density as a rallying cry for preserving the "culture in our city" is silly. Radical change brings... wait for it ...radical change.

Yes, we have a shortage of affordable housing, but increasing density also increases prices because increased density makes neighborhoods more attractive as more residents create opportunities for more goods and services. That's where the basic supply and demand law falls apart in practice. Look at inner SE for an easy example. Ten years ago, you could rent a dump in inner SE for under $500 a month. I knew people who were doing it. But the area was so sketchy that most people didn't want to live there. A friend of mine was dating a guy who lived just across the river in SE, and it was a point of embarrassment for her. They always went back to her place, in NW. Never to his. But look at inner SE now... and wait until 5 years from now. As all of the new development brings new high rises and new retail, new shops and new bars... just wait and see what the effect on rental prices is going to be, even at the older places. It's going to jump, Jump, JUMP. That neighborhood is going to pop. Hello, increased density. And hello skyrocketing rent.

I'm not saying increased density = higher rent. I'm saying increased neighborhood desirability = higher rent. It works like this:

Increased density = higher population in a given neighborhood.
Higher population = more opportunities for shops and bars.
More shops and bars = a hipper, more vibrant neighborhood.
Hipper neighborhood = more people wanting to live there.
More people wanting to live there = higher rent, because landlords can charge more.

Sadly, the benefits that come with increased density, such as better mass transit, more restaurants, pubs, bars, shops, new parks, increased vitality and fun... all of those things make a neighborhood more desirable, which makes more people want to live in the neighborhood, which drives up competition for apartments, which drives up the price of rent. I've seen rents rise by 1/3 in the last five years downtown. A lot of it is being driven by the resurgence of the west end, and Target, and the Apple Store, and everything else that's going on downtown.

If you're thinking that increased density will bring down housing prices... it won't. And if you think increasing density is something we have to fight for... it's not. Thanks to our urban growth boundary (which I am thankful for!), increasing density is a foregone conclusion (and I'm glad, because I support it fiercely). Yeah, places like Lake Oswego and Clackamas may fight it, but they'll lose those battles over time.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Pacific West > Portland > General Discussion
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:51 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.