Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 4

[scottharding]

Personally, as a citizen of Salt Lake and a resident of downtown, I want the LDS church to have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Convention Center and Convention Center Hotel. I would take getting nothing over getting a hotel with any ties to the LDS church and its businesses. So yeah, in that sense, I have a problem with it being on West Temple.
And before anyone cries bigotry or prejudice on this, I have every right to not want the church having further influence over the politics and business in this city. It doesn't mean I hate Mormons.

[cololi]

The development world is a highly competitive market. I wouldn't put too much stock into all of the speculation about the CCH. Mitchell development is upset, but they very likely could not have pulled off a development of that magnitude, considering nothing else in their portfolio comes remotely close. the reality is that there are only a handful of companies in the country who can afford to build a full service hotel of this size. Check out the incentives being offered for a SLC CCH vs what other cities are offering then decide accordingly.

I have no clue what Omni is thinking, but considering they are in the running for the Boston CCH and are building a large hotel in Louisville with lots more incentive, I don't think SLC is a priority for them, especially since they self finance all of their projects. They only have so much capacity.

[Marvland]

I call a degree of —. SLC is down $1.2 billion because he couldn't build his project? As I read that statement by Mitchell, I am struck by what a wise man once told me about real estate: when a small time actor plays really big, they get burned. See: Laporte. Laporte is now a $50mil DOOMED project and from what I can tell, that's about 10 times as big as anything else he's done. I am convinced it won't complete under current ownership. I have greater hope for the Air Center as it's more of a vertical mixed use project and I'm hopeful of his hotel tenant booking. As far as I can tell, Mitchelll is based in Montana and I can't find a formal web page. His vision, as beautiful as it may be, seems to be a pie in the sky. I love the idea of a small guy dreaming big, but this is really big. As in half a billion big. Sounds like he pumped a bunch of money into really pretty renderings and a huge investment prospectus, which is a the calling card of a small guy going big. He got burned and is now mad that he couldn't pull it off, which is understandable.

I will say that I am aware of the position of a bunch of the property owners that would need to be bought out to make West Temple happen and I'm VERY skeptical that they can be bought out. Arrowpress is way too small for the project alone. There is a large chunk of change going into a few of the buildings for renovations and re-purposing and their subsequent buy-out cost has skyrocketed since the CCH idea has been floating around. The restaurants and bar that reside there are raking in money. I know the Church has deep pockets, but they can't force anybody to sell anything. As Omni sharpens their pencil, I am sure they are swinging their weight around. Certain parts of the RFP were really dumb, written by urban planners with no regard to economic reality. My best guess, which is all we really have in this information vacuum, is that they are trimming the fat before they go public on a location. I wouldn't be surprised to see it reemerge as an RFP with new terms soon. Terms that Omni requires.

[ajiuO]

UPDATED:

Lets take a look at exactly who own this property (See diagram below)



(01) ZIONS First National Bank:
29 W 100S (Parking Lot)
33 W 100S (Parking Lot)
37 W 100S (Office Building)
102 S Main (ZIONS First National Bank)
116 S Main (Parking Lot)
118 S Main (Parking Lot)
120 S Main (ZIONS Bank Resource Center)
122 S Main (Utah Film Center)
124 S Main (Edinburgh Castle Scottish Imports)

(02) Vasillios Priskos: (VMM LLC, 39/49 LLC, Banaloops)
55 W 100S (Caffe Molise)
57 W 100S (Caffe Molise)
59 W 100S (Nexia)
61 W 100S (Caffe Molise)
63 W 100S (BTG Wine Bar)
65 W 100S (Oxford Shop)
115 S West Temple (Empty Lot.. Old club DV8)
119 S West Temple (Behind APS DV8)
123 S West Temple (Arrow Press Square)

(03) Redevelopment Agency of Salt Lake:
148 S Main (Utah Arts)
150 S Main (Beckett & Robb)
152 S Main (Southam Gallery)
154 S Main (Ray's Barber Shop)
156 S Main (Twisted Roots)

(04) Hines:
133 S Main (Michelangelo's)
136 S Main (Jos. A. Bank)

(05) Nick & Virginia Kalantzes:
107 S West Temple (N/A)

(06) CNK Properties LLC:
67 W 100S (Naked Fish)

(07) Salt Lake City Corp:
49 W 100S (Cafe Molise - Outside Dining)

(08) Unknown 1:
128 S Main (Beehive Pub)

(09) Unknown 2:
158 S Main (Gandolpho's)
160 S Main (Murphy's Bar & Grill)

(10) Rocky Mountain Power
155 S West Temple (Sub Station & Parking)

(11) DM Temple LLC
175 S West Temple (Office Building)

______________________________________
Convention Center Hotel Comments:

- Area 01: There is a real possability here. It is mostly parking and all owned by the same company.
- Area 02: There is a really high possability here. Arrow Press square is eventually coming down rather you like it or not.
- Area 03: I wouldn't call this area ultimately safe... but this is not a likely candidate for a convention hotel.
- Area 04 (Kearns Building): Is safe. It is on a historic registry and not going anywhere.
- Area 05: This building is unused and could easily be bought up by Vasillios Priskos to combined with his surrounding property.
- Area 06: This Building is currently leased to the Naked Fish. If 6 is the only thing standing in the way of 2+5 then 6=0... It — but face it.
- Area 07: I give this building a 50/50 chance. It could be nice... but is anyone willing to spend the money? It would probably get the stucco treatment like the ZIMS building did.
- Area 08: Is Most likely safe.
- Area 09: See Area 3.
- Area 10: No Hotel is going here for 100% sure
- Area 11: This Property is on the market for a cool 27 mil. It would be to wasteful to demolish... but never say never.

______________________________________
Vasilios Priskos:

With the amount of property owned by the Zions Bank… Its not completely unfathomable that they might have used its influence to broker a land sale/lease deal for such a huge development. I'm not sure of the churches influence into ZIONS but the church owns the property along South Temple.

Another big name that keeps popping up is Vasilios Priskos. I thought that I would do a little bit of research on him and found some interesting stuff. He owns a lot of building and property around town including the old Salt Lake Tribune building. He sits on the chair of the Main Street Comity and is a member of the the down town alliance comity. http://www.iproperties.com/staff-details.php?id=1

On 11-14-13 Vasilios Priskos gave an interview with KCPW. Where he talked about owning Arrow Press square and several building along 100 South. He expressed his opinion that he thought that his property would be a great spot for the Convention Center Hotel. He was then asked what he would do with the property if it was not chosen as the site of the Convention Center Hotel. He said that if another locations was chosen that he would build another 300-500 room hotel on the corner of 100S and West Temple…. but he also said that if the Convention Center hotel was not built that he would not put a second hotel there… So if the convention Center does in fact get built… Regardless of where it goes… There will be a hotel going up on that site… So we will likely be saying goodbye to the wine bar and other businesses along 100 S… http://kcpw.org/blog/downtown-slc/2013-11-18/development-downtown-vasilios-priskos/

On January 5th Vasillios Priskos gave an interview with X96 where he was discussing the Arrow press square property. He basically said that the building had been altered a lot over the years and it was not feasible to repair it. He also said, and I quote “we’re anxious to go through with the next development that will happen on this corner. hopefully it will be a hotell of some sort, and, and, we’re going down that road, and until that decision gets made. Then we will decide what we want to do here and move forward”. and then he speaks about how the city ordinances prevent them from demolishing the building. http://x96.com/news/x96-seeking-salt-lake-arrow-press-square/

So it appears as if there are two big players in the land business…. It would be no surprise if there are people with actule local power who are doing what they can to prevent stuff like what was purposed on the RWP site from happening.

[Marvland]

Mr. Priskos owns Iprops, a prominent brokerage in SLC. He is also married into the Bamberger clan, who owns a large swath of main street and other key parcels. Met him and he seems like a nice chap. His family, along with the Brunolfos (cough, ZEPHYR, cough cough) and a hand full of other families control the destiny of much of downtown. Unfortunately, they all seem disinclined to do anything with any of it as it sits. I would say that one of the major obstacles to our city's downtown development is the lack of vision of its property owners. There is literally no reason for any true vacancy on Main Street any more other than short-sided ownership.

Seems like they all want to landbank, then tip what remains of our historic building stock over to go vertical at some undetermined date. I love tall buildings as much as the rest of you, but we simply can't afford to knock our beloved buildings over any more. Too much damage done in the late '70s and '80s. We have a bunch of parking lots to show for it. I've heard the refrain that Arrow Press is not salvageable and totally disagree. Old building rehabs happen and are profitable all of the time. He simply wants to go big time too. I also saw no reason for DV8 and Dead Goat, two legendary bars, to close other than these aspirations.

Anyway, massive rehab of Naked Fish with one of the most significant restaurant openings in our history on top of it happening this year. Good luck to whomever wants that rather important piece.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by delts145

Wow! One has to wonder if this is also what is currently happening with Omni. I wonder if this game being played also has Holding Properties behind it?

Originally Posted by Comrade

delts, I'm actually surprised at how quick your tone changed when we swapped out Holding for the LDS Church. Kinda got whiplash there. In a matter of hours, you went from pushing the idea that Holding could be behind it - with a tone that suggests you'd be against such crony politics that could kill any proposal - to defending the the LDS Church doing the exact same thing.

It was a simple question about Holding. I have no idea whether Holding has any involvement. That was the reason for the question mark. There was no pushing of anything Holding, except for maybe in your typical response.

[Comrade]

lol whatever you say, delts. It's pretty clear your rhetoric changed dramatically when the idea it could be the LDS Church behind it came up. Notice you called it a game when alluding to Holding ... but an entirely good move when it's the Church.

To quote you, "wow!"

Wow, indeed.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by delts145

... We all have dreamed of how incredible it would be to work around the historic Pantages, Dinwoody, and Arrow Press buildings. How many of you have posted drawings on the forum dreaming of the possibility?

If the church is involved, they'll demolish the historic buildings, not work around them. The hotel shouldn't be across the street from the Salt Palace, anyway, it needs to be physically connected. RWP is the absolute best location.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by delts145

It was a simple question about Holding. I have no idea whether Holding has any involvement. That was the reason for the question mark. There was no pushing of anything Holding, except for maybe in your typical response.

Holding is dead.

[jtrent77]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Lets take a look at exactly who own this property (See diagram below)

1) ZIONS First National Bank (The LDS Church)

The LDS church has not been a majority shareholder in Zions Bancorp since 1960. Further, Zions Bancorp is a publicly traded company and thus is at the mercy of shareholders and not run like a private company.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Marvland

Mr. Priskos owns Iprops, a prominent brokerage in SLC. He is also married into the Bamberger clan, who owns a large swath of main street and other key parcels. Met him and he seems like a nice chap. His family, along with the Brunolfos (cough, ZEPHYR, cough cough) and a hand full of other families control the destiny of much of downtown. Unfortunately, they all seem disinclined to do anything with any of it as it sits. I would say that one of the major obstacles to our city's downtown development is the lack of vision of its property owners. There is literally no reason for any true vacancy on Main Street any more other than short-sided ownership.

Seems like they all want to landbank, then tip what remains of our historic building stock over to go vertical at some undetermined date. I love tall buildings as much as the rest of you, but we simply can't afford to knock our beloved buildings over any more. Too much damage done in the late '70s and '80s. We have a bunch of parking lots to show for it. I've heard the refrain that Arrow Press is not salvageable and totally disagree. Old building rehabs happen and are profitable all of the time. He simply wants to go big time too. I also saw no reason for DV8 and Dead Goat, two legendary bars, to close other than these aspirations.

Anyway, massive rehab of Naked Fish with one of the most significant restaurant openings in our history on top of it happening this year. Good luck to whomever wants that rather important piece.

Its true that Old building rehabs happen... In fact the owner of Arow Press Square believes the same thing. This is the same guy who owns the tribune building... But Arrow Press Square is a mess. One side of the building was damaged from when DV8 burnt down and was then demolished. The NW Corner of the building is cracking away about 1-3 feet in. The south side of the building has windows that do not look at all original to the building... You have to wonder how that affected the integrity of the building. There was a fire on the 3rd floor a while back. There is really nothing inside the building worth preserving because nothing is original... other then the elevator. At this point the only thing worth saving is maybe the front of the building.... Its been done before with more significant building... I doubt anyone would be willing to spend that kind of money on this particular building though.

One thing is for sure... The Entrance roof should be removed immediately... the cross beams are all rusted out and ready to collapse... if it does it could hurt someone.

The naked fish is great... but if its the only thing standing in the way... A deal will be worked out and it will be gone

[EPdesign]

.....and this is why I love reading what you all write. It lets me see different sides of the story

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Holding is dead.

I know that Stenar. Do you think though that there are those who carry on the company interests with the same prejudice against a CCH as in years past? Just curious, no idea whether the Little America interests still feel that a CCH is a threat to their investment or not...

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Marvland

I call a degree of —. SLC is down $1.2 billion because he couldn't build his project? As I read that statement by Mitchell, I am struck by what a wise man once told me about real estate: when a small time actor plays really big, they get burned. See: Laporte. Laporte is now a $50mil DOOMED project and from what I can tell, that's about 10 times as big as anything else he's done. I am convinced it won't complete under current ownership. I have greater hope for the Air Center as it's more of a vertical mixed use project and I'm hopeful of his hotel tenant booking. As far as I can tell, Mitchelll is based in Montana and I can't find a formal web page. His vision, as beautiful as it may be, seems to be a pie in the sky. I love the idea of a small guy dreaming big, but this is really big. As in half a billion big. Sounds like he pumped a bunch of money into really pretty renderings and a huge investment prospectus, which is a the calling card of a small guy going big. He got burned and is now mad that he couldn't pull it off, which is understandable.

I will say that I am aware of the position of a bunch of the property owners that would need to be bought out to make West Temple happen and I'm VERY skeptical that they can be bought out. Arrowpress is way too small for the project alone. There is a large chunk of change going into a few of the buildings for renovations and re-purposing and their subsequent buy-out cost has skyrocketed since the CCH idea has been floating around. The restaurants and bar that reside there are raking in money. I know the Church has deep pockets, but they can't force anybody to sell anything. As Omni sharpens their pencil, I am sure they are swinging their weight around. Certain parts of the RFP were really dumb, written by urban planners with no regard to economic reality. My best guess, which is all we really have in this information vacuum, is that they are trimming the fat before they go public on a location. I wouldn't be surprised to see it reemerge as an RFP with new terms soon. Terms that Omni requires.

I appreciate, agree with and enjoy much of what your saying Marvland, particularly regarding Mitchell.

Not referring to what you were saying on the matter, but more along the line of the tone some seem to be following, my take on the LDS Churches involvement is a little different. Sure, the LDS Church has deep pockets, but I wouldn't for a second seriously think that it would be their intent to force anyone to sell anything as some might suggest. However, I do think it would be feasible that if a reasonable opportunity presented itself, and an Omni or Marriott were interested in the different pieces of the Zions block coming together, the Church would be willing to attempt brokering a win win situation for the diverse interests. I've seen them numerous times exhibit a lot of good will and take a bit of a diminished profit in order to further a project as a whole. There's are a lot of positive potential with the Zions block if all of the pieces could come together. I know it's a stretch, but if anyone could bring the diverse interests together, and make it feasibly profitable for everyone, its probably going to be the Church.

As is often the case when the Church is involved you have a silent partner with very extensive capital, such as a Marriott. That's the only reason I brought the Marriott name up. Marriott, not wholly as a corporation, but as a family of private interests in promoting Utah and SLC interests, have been extremely generous in the past. Frankly, I have been somewhat perplexed as to why Marriott hasn't built a bit of a showpiece in Salt Lake City before now. I mean their hotels in Salt Lake are nice, but I would have thought that where Salt Lake is involved they would have wanted to hit something out of the park by now. Irregardless of what the board wants, they have more than enough sway and personal capital to make it happen. I assume that the need for their contributions for building infrastructure are pretty high on a world wide scale, where the LDS Church is involved. Personally, I think that Salt Lake City has reached a point where it could handle both The Grand America and a very upscale signature J.W. Marriott. Perhaps, a J.W. Marriott, along with a Ritz boutique would be asking too much, but I think it could fly given the convention business potential for Salt Lake's unique situation. It wouldn't take long for the demand to develop, even with a Grand America already in the market.

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

The naked fish is great... but if its the only thing standing in the way... A deal will be worked out and it will be gone

Naked Fish's founder/owner is the son of the man that owns the building. The capital group is a bunch of prominent local business people whose names we all know. The restaurant going in above NF will be very big deal. Elevators, seismic, the whole nine. And even though Priskos group owns the Molise building, Molise has an active lease on their space and BTG. They bled hard for that BTG license and I can imagine they are a tough nut to crack. In my opinion, 1st and W. Temple is the best F&B location in the city and those places are institutions. NF might be one of the best inland sushi joints in the country.

[Makid]

Speaking as someone who has some inside knowledge, prior to the decision of letting the Developer choose the location for the CCH, there was 1 location that was actively being looked at for the location of the CCH. The location was not APS (Arrow Press Square).

While it was on West Temple, it was also on 2nd South. There were substantial meetings and discussions regarding the location and about possible acquisition. The discussion ended shortly after the decision was made to allow the CCH developer to purchase the land.

As a note, APS hasn't been considered as a legitimate contender for a 3rd party CCH. If the owner wants to build one, they could but most of the government players don't feel that the location would be good for a 1000+ room hotel. They do however have 3 locations, 1 is the site listed above, 2nd is RWP and the 3rd is still unable to be disclosed.

I can say that the placement of the CCH is whole upto the developer but even the locations looked at by the government players do show that they are not trying to build up business in a particular area of town (CCC) and are looking at what would be better for travelers as a whole (rooms, dining, entertainment and shopping). 2nd South and South Temple both have links to CCC and Gateway but 2nd South does have more dining opportunities nearby.

And the line in the RFP about ensuring no significant blocking of the solar panels on the convention center, this was done to ensure a slim, taller building rather than a wide wall would be build regardless of the location selected by the developer.

[UTPlanner]

Ah, nothing like beginning the day with a litany of conspiracy! Having spoke with a few members of the selection committee personally, the reason Omni has been slow to respond is not influence and/or pressure coming from any outside groups, and the City/County want this project to be happen as quickly as possible. The longer it takes the more it makes current leaders look as though they were wrong about the project's feasibility.

Frankly, I am not one to readily defend the LDS Church or the Holding family but it is not fair to throw them under this bus. If you ask me, I think that the fact that only one group even submitted a plan for the CCH should say a lot about the whether or not the hotel is a solid financial investment. It also does not help that we have had 2 new hotels built west of the Salt Palace and another being proposed south adjacent to the Holiday Inn. SLC is a small market and I think that Omni is treading this deal very carefully.

As for Mitchell Development and their plan. Well, I think the letter he penned is complete BS. I sent his video around the office and not one planner here had ever heard of this man or viewed the video.

[Ironweed]

Interesting info Utah Planner. Is there a likelihood/probability that the RFP will be redone? The SLC doobers may need to eat some humble pie and not be so demanding of the developer. The longer this is drawn out, the more evident it is that SLC 'un-officials' are in fact, completely clueless to what they are doing.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by delts145

I know that Stenar. Do you think though that there are those who carry on the company interests with the same prejudice against a CCH as in years past? Just curious, no idea whether the Little America interests still feel that a CCH is a threat to their investment or not...

Yes, the Holdings feel a CCH would be a threat to their hotels. Absolutely. They've been actively fighting against any CCH for a couple of decades. I worked there 12 years ago and witnessed their actions first hand. The action was led by Clint Ensign, not Holding himself, though.


Clint Ensign
Vice President of Government Relations, Sinclair Oil Corporation
http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/person.asp?personId=20805984&privcapId=4161761

[delts145]

Thanks Stenar. I know I had remembered you commenting on that before. That's why I ventured to ask.

I've always felt that RWP was the best site, but I would be optimistic if ever for some reason the Zion's configuration were somehow in the mix...of course while maintaining the historic structures. Sounds though like the conspiracy theories are just fun and games to pass the time. Makid's comments sound pretty solid, and I don't have a problem with any of the sites he mentioned as probable possibilities.