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[Drybrain]

It's a perfectly scaled block that defines the corner and works extremely well and has major historic and architectural value.

That it could replaced with something like the renderings Westwood has put out in the past few years indicates a major failure somewhere in the city's planning process. I think once this is all built and we can look at a before-and-after picture, that'll be obvious.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

FWIW, remember that a Starbucks also opened up just across the street, which I'm sure contributed to the demise of this Second Cup location. The Nestle shop on the opposite corner, in a nice new shiny building also just shut down. So I guess by that evidence, new buildings on busy corners are not good candidates for food establishments but repurposed buildings like the Starbucks in the old bank are ideal...

Don't be silly. I was merely pointing out that the businesses in this block were hardly the roaring successes that a poster who perpetually wears rose-colored glasses when looking at old rundown structures claims they were.

IMHO, this building is a prime candidate for a repurposing, or in worst case, a façading. I think this building, with a good exterior cleaning and upgraded facilities on the inside (or even with a tower protruding from the center of it), would continue to be a great cornerstone for this intersection and would offer great contrast with the ultramodern library building (oops... I said the "L" word... ).

Actually, in looking at the building on Google Maps, a vast improvement in the building's appearance would occur if the old Second Cup add-on was removed and if the BMO blue was changed to another more complimentary colour (along with a good pressure-washing of the building itself).

Leaving us, save for the old Second Cup add-on, with a beauty of a result like this...




In truth, I expect Westwood to come up something pretty good for this block.

[hokus83]

Is this just the BMO building now? I thought it was the whole block, I haven't seen any talk about the fireside and other places having to relocate or close. I feel a bit confused as to whats fully encompassed in this

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Don't be silly. I was merely pointing out that the businesses in this block were hardly the roaring successes that a poster who perpetually wears rose-colored glasses when looking at old rundown structures claims they were.

Fair enough, but I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Leaving us, save for the old Second Cup add-on, with a beauty of a result like this...

IMHO, that architect should be fired. I'm not in the profession, but can easily see ways that the elements of the original design can be integrated into an attractive final product. This one just looks like stuff is tacked onto it, analogous to the person who buys a bunch of accessories at Canadian Tire and proceeds to stick all of them on their car - not a pretty sight.

This mockery takes away most of what is attractive (IMHO) in that building. Hardly a well thought-out design.

[JET]

"a poster who perpetually wears rose-colored glasses when looking at old rundown structures.." Keith, you might need to be a bit more specific; that could be a number of left leaning, view-saving, anarchists; me included.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by hokus83

Is this just the BMO building now? I thought it was the whole block, I haven't seen any talk about the fireside and other places having to relocate or close. I feel a bit confused as to whats fully encompassed in this

It's the whole block. Fireside's move was mentioned really briefly in that Metro story about it. Chapel Hill is recently closed, and the Ottoman Cafe is closing too. The Sleep Country is moving nearby. It's a block-bust really, a parcel of properties assembled and knocked down as a whole for a block-spanning development. Totally contrary to sound planning, unless the development happens to be really good. Which I really doubt.

[coolmillion]

Is that the design that is currently on the books for this development? If so, yuck. It looks like a Clayton Park special.
One issue with this block, like so many buildings downtown, is that deferred maintenance has resulted in it becoming shabby and somewhat unattractive over the years. Rumours of redevelopment first started bubbling probably 5 years ago (or more?) and that's a long time for a prominent building to be ignored by its owner. The outdoor space along Queen for example has so much potential but it has been completely wasted.
I too am curious as to whether the redevelopment will include the buildings further east or is it only the BMO building.
Danny Chedrawe was quite receptive to feedback when I wrote to him with concerns about the Drum building design. I think an issue with some developers is that the bottom line (profit), combined with inertia of existing agreements and relationships sometimes gets in the way of opportunities to be creative.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

It's the whole block. Fireside's move was mentioned really briefly in that Metro story about it. Chapel Hill is recently closed, and the Ottoman Cafe is closing too. The Sleep Country is moving nearby. It's a block-bust really, a parcel of properties assembled and knocked down as a whole for a block-spanning development. Totally contrary to sound planning, unless the development happens to be really good. Which I really doubt.

The whole block?! Geez, it's sounding more hopeless all the time...

Is there a rendering for the actual project online somewhere?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JET

"a poster who perpetually wears rose-colored glasses when looking at old rundown structures.." Keith, you might need to be a bit more specific; that could be a number of left leaning, view-saving, anarchists; me included.

Good point and quite true. The tint of the lenses in those glasses matches quite well with the tones of the political leanings of many of the usual suspects here.

Seriously, this banter is all just a fun diversion. I know Chedrawe, and while he came from humble origins, he has a lot of sense and I truly believe he is always looking to do good in his projects. I think he will come up with something for this site that is at least worthy of serious consideration.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The whole block?! Geez, it's sounding more hopeless all the time...

Is there a rendering for the actual project online somewhere?

No project has officially been applied for as yet.

The last rendering from several years ago was this, viewed from the back side at the corner of Doyle & Queen, but I don't think this is in play now:

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

No project has officially been applied for as yet.

The last rendering from several years ago was this, viewed from the back side at the corner of Doyle & Queen, but I don't think this is in play now:

Thanks Keith. Not horrible, I guess, but not inspiring either.

I'll hold my thoughts until I see a real proposal, but will admit I am skeptical.

All said, I'd still rather see some of those buildings preserved and repurposed, with projects like this filling up some of those eyesore empty lots that have been a blight on the downtown for years (decades). Just my opinion, your mileage may vary...

[Drybrain]

I think that rendering is pretty plainly inferior to what's currently there in every way: architectural quality, street interaction, history (obviously), massing and scale.

I'm sure whatever is finally proposed will differ, but I'm still incredibly skeptical that it will compensate for what amounts to blockbusting a functioning historical streetscape (which is just an insanely retrograde thing to do nowadays, but whatever. Some will disagree.)

[hokus83]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

No project has officially been applied for as yet.

The last rendering from several years ago was this, viewed from the back side at the corner of Doyle & Queen, but I don't think this is in play now:

This would be better suited for the other side of Doyle street across from the BMO that is dead. tear that worthless strip down and build a tower

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I think that rendering is pretty plainly inferior to what's currently there in every way: architectural quality, street interaction, history (obviously), massing and scale.

I'm sure whatever is finally proposed will differ, but I'm still incredibly skeptical that it will compensate for what amounts to blockbusting a functioning historical streetscape (which is just an insanely retrograde thing to do nowadays, but whatever. Some will disagree.)

I guess we will have to wait and see what the new plans are. I do think that there should be more expansive heritage protections and a better sense of different classes of heritage buildings. For example, maybe there could be a class requiring the preservation of facades that would cover more modest buildings that otherwise wouldn't be registered at all. There should be more appreciation of the fact that these buildings play a crucial role in establishing the character of the city.

I'd be cautious about judging the quality of future developments from outdated renderings. This is what the early TD renderings looked like:


Source

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I agree with Colin's response above, plus in the broader scope restaurants come and go all the time. It is a risky business to be in as they can fall in and out of popularity at a whim. This is something that happens in all parts of the city (and abroad) and thus I don't think it's a valid argument to try to say that this location is "bad" because some restaurants/coffee shops, etc have closed (and typically reopened with a new owner/direction).

FWIW, remember that a Starbucks also opened up just across the street, which I'm sure contributed to the demise of this Second Cup location. The Nestle shop on the opposite corner, in a nice new shiny building also just shut down. So I guess by that evidence, new buildings on busy corners are not good candidates for food establishments but repurposed buildings like the Starbucks in the old bank are ideal...

IMHO, this building is a prime candidate for a repurposing, or in worst case, a façading. I think this building, with a good exterior cleaning and upgraded facilities on the inside (or even with a tower protruding from the center of it), would continue to be a great cornerstone for this intersection and would offer great contrast with the ultramodern library building (oops... I said the "L" word... ).

Actually, in looking at the building on Google Maps, a vast improvement in the building's appearance would occur if the old Second Cup add-on was removed and if the BMO blue was changed to another more complimentary colour (along with a good pressure-washing of the building itself).



https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.643284,-6...gImcN6cZQA!2e0!5s20140801T000000!6m1!1e1

I agree. I actually think this building, via facadist design, could be a pedestal for a significant high rise development. It would be great for this sport, to lend more significance to this intersection and area. A significant development to pair with the beautiful library across the street.

I would retain all of this facade. It's great. Again, it could be a pedestal for a high rise.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Well, Second Cup shut down, perhaps due to competition from the HRM-subsidized cafe in the glass box across the street. The bar/pool hall above Rogues has been shut down for years. TD Bank left. The eateries on the corner of Brunswick have been in constant turmoil since Thackerays shut down. Success? Really? I'd hate to see failures.

Second Cup was gone long before the library.

The Ottoman's Cafe was awesome, but was basically killed by this current idiotic nanny state Liberal Government-- they essentially passed laws that banned water pipes (hookah pipes) in Nova Scotia, treating them like e-cigarettes and tobacco, which they're not.

There is no tobacco in hookah. There isn't.

http://unews.ca/hookah-bars-threatened-by-smoking-legislation/

In that story, there's a know-it-all bureaucrat, who is probably responsible for getting these small business banned (and costing countless jobs), ignorantly saying otherwise.

I really, really, hate this. You can find hookah/shisha bars in all great cities like London, New York, and great cities in Canada -- Montreal, Toronto. It's a cultural thing that a lot of new Canadians and international students enjoy.

Ottoman Cafe was having a lot of success, but were forced to shut down after the regulations were passed. Same with 1001 Nights:

In Quebec, hookah bars simply have to abide by certain regulations. Not in Nova Scotia. We ban anything new and different.

This clueless, moronic, Liberal Government, which is fine throwing money at dying rural ferries and polluting pulp mills or killing local film biz via tax changes, distract everyone from their idiocy by passing dumb regulations that force successful business, run by new Canadians who migrated here and are creating jobs, to close.

What this was, again, was probably some know-it-all bureaucrats in the NS Government that didn't like the CFAs running these places. So, let's pretend hookah is like e-cigarettes and ban them. More reason why we can't have new and different things in this province.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Don't be silly. I was merely pointing out that the businesses in this block were hardly the roaring successes that a poster who perpetually wears rose-colored glasses when looking at old rundown structures claims they were.




Leaving us, save for the old Second Cup add-on, with a beauty of a result like this...




In truth, I expect Westwood to come up something pretty good for this block.

That's a horrid design. Fine for a highway mall out in Bedford, but not on the corner of what is turning out to be one of the most important intersections downtown, with our legit national and world-class designed library across the street.

Could Westwood show some sense and class for once, and hire a high level architect? Enough with the suburban mall massing.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

The Ottoman's Cafe was awesome, but was basically killed by this current idiotic nanny state Liberal Government-- they essentially passed laws that banned water pipes (hookah pipes) in Nova Scotia, treating them like e-cigarettes and tobacco, which they're not.

There is no tobacco in hookah. There isn't.

http://unews.ca/hookah-bars-threatened-by-smoking-legislation/

In that story, there's a know-it-all bureaucrat, who is probably responsible for getting these small business banned (and costing countless jobs), ignorantly saying otherwise.

I really, really, hate this. You can find hookah/shisha bars in all great cities like London, New York, and great cities in Canada -- Montreal, Toronto. It's a cultural thing that a lot of new Canadians and international students enjoy.

Ottoman Cafe was having a lot of success, but were forced to shut down after the regulations were passed. Same with 1001 Nights:

In Quebec, hookah bars simply have to abide by certain regulations. Not in Nova Scotia. We ban anything new and different.

This clueless, moronic, Liberal Government, which is fine throwing money at dying rural ferries and polluting pulp mills or killing local film biz via tax changes, distract everyone from their idiocy by passing dumb regulations that force successful business, run by new Canadians who migrated here and are creating jobs, to close.

What this was, again, was probably some know-it-all bureaucrats in the NS Government that didn't like the CFAs running these places. So, let's pretend hookah is like e-cigarettes and ban them. More reason why we can't have new and different things in this province.

You are quite correct in your conclusions but wrong in your statement that there is no tobacco in the product. While Ottoman may have claimed they used a "herbal" product, hookah generally uses tobacco unless illegal drugs are being consumed.

The reason the provincial nannies had to ban it was because they are banning all public venues from allowing any tobacco consumption and in certain cases, smoking of non-tobacco derivatives as well. It is ridiculous but none of the sheep we elected to the Legislature were prepared to be smeared as stooges of "Big Tobacco" by the health crazies if they spoke against it. It would be difficult for them to defend putting cigar bars out of business if they allowed this. Ottoman was collateral damage in the war to protect us from ourselves.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

What this was, again, was probably some know-it-all bureaucrats in the NS Government that didn't like the CFAs running these places. So, let's pretend hookah is like e-cigarettes and ban them. More reason why we can't have new and different things in this province.

Wow, cynical much? I don't think it's a case of xenophobia or the (insert negative adjective here) Liberals actively trying to rid the province of innovation. It's probably just the logical extension of our tobacco laws - maybe "hookah" doesn't contain tobacco but every time I've used a hookah we were smoking shisha which absolutely does contain tobacco. Maybe the Ottoman was using tobacco-free shisha but most people would assume that there is tobacco in it. I agree that these laws could be better nuanced but if the intent of the law is "one should not be able to run a business based around letting people smoke indoors (ostensibly for health reasons)" then I can see why banning or restricting this kind of thing would make sense. I don't necessarily agree though, and I wonder what the effect (if any) will be on places like High Life.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

You are quite correct in your conclusions but wrong in your statement that there is no tobacco in the product. While Ottoman may have claimed they used a "herbal" product, hookah generally uses tobacco unless illegal drugs are being consumed.

The reason the provincial nannies had to ban it was because they are banning all public venues from allowing any tobacco consumption and in certain cases, smoking of non-tobacco derivatives as well. It is ridiculous but none of the sheep we elected to the Legislature were prepared to be smeared as stooges of "Big Tobacco" by the health crazies if they spoke against it. It would be difficult for them to defend putting cigar bars out of business if they allowed this. Ottoman was collateral damage in the war to protect us from ourselves.

I just want to be clear on your stance before I respond... are you saying that the regulation of tobacco is an issue only for "health crazies"? Or are you only referring to the fact that Ottoman may in fact not have been using tobacco and this was collateral?