Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

Maybe between Expo's needs and the desire for baseball, that was enough to justify a new stadium.

I think at the time there was a fair chance at acquiring an MLB franchise.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's all the more strange when you consider that the Stamps have generally averaged crowds of more than 27K over the past 20 years or so. I would think 30K expandable to 40K would be the absolute minimum for Calgary... realistically it should probably be around the 38K expandable to 45K mark. Even a permanent capacity of 45K would not be unreasonable for such a big and growing city with a strong football fanbase.

It's all about ticket scarcity and maximizing revenues, that's the trend. Fewer seats (that will always be filled and harder to come by) for football fans, more patio space to attract younger audiences (casual "event" fans).

[elly63]

For those who are coming late to the story here is a recent primer

Argos and BMO Field: Frequently asked questions
Some questions and answers surrounding a potential Argos sale and move to BMO Field.
Curtis Rush Sports reporter, thestar.com Apr 29 2015

A deal to sell the Toronto Argonauts and move them to the more intimate facility at BMO Field in time for the 2016 season could be only days away.

It emerged this week that Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment chairman Larry Tanenbaum and Bell (part owners of MLSE) are negotiating to buy the Argos and contribute $10 million to ensure that stadium renovations meet CFL standards.

Some frequently asked questions about the potential Argos sale and move:

What conditions are attached to the deal?

A new owner wants the CFL to guarantee that BMO Field at Exhibition Place would host the Grey Cup game twice within 10 years. Interim CFL commissioner Jim Lawson said he doesn’t think the league’s board would have a problem with that condition.

Who are the key parties involved?

Lawson has been monitoring talks between Argos owner David Braley, Bell, Tanenbaum and MLSE, which runs the city-owned BMO Field. City councillor Mark Grimes, chairman of the Exhibition Stadium board, has also been kept apprised of developments. (Jeffrey Orridge took over as CFL commissioner Wednesday.)

Why is Braley trying to sell the Argos?

Braley bought the Argos in 2010 from David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski even though he already owns the B.C. Lions. There’s nothing in the CFL’s constitution preventing one person from owning two different teams. Braley is 73 and wants to sell one team before he turns 75. The Argos have been losing money for years. The Lions are in better financial shape.

Why do the Argos have to move?

Their lease at Rogers Centre expires at the end of 2017 and the Jays want them out so they can put down natural grass. Also, the Rogers Centre is so cavernous, seating more than 50,000 for football, that it’s not a great football environment when fewer than 20,000 are in the stadium. They averaged less than 18,000 last year.

If the Argos move by 2016, does that mean the Jays can play on grass next season?

No. Steven Brooks, Blue Jays senior vice-president of operations, said if the Argos left Rogers Centre before the lease ends in 2017, it would not speed up the installation of real grass. “There is still significant investigation, analysis and research to do as to the feasibility of real grass,” he said in an email.

Why are Larry Tanenbaum and Bell in talks to buy the team?

There were other groups who had interest in buying the Argos, but they were not realistic bidders because they didn’t have a stadium. MLSE has a lease at BMO Field, a property owned by the city of Toronto. Bell owns TSN and has broadcast rights to the CFL. A strong CFL team in Toronto can only help ratings.

Are there any other suitable stadiums?

No. There are other stadiums with great locations in the city, but they are too small. The Argos need a crowd of at least 20,000 a game to break even or make a profit. At BMO, after renovations, they’d be able to host 30,000 fans.

What is the deadline for the deal?

On Friday, outgoing MLSE CEO Tim Leiweke told the Exhibition Place board that the clock had ticked down to 10 days (May 4) to allow enough time to alter construction plans so the soccer field can accommodate football in time for the 2016 season.

What are the hurdles involved?

Reports suggest that the negotiations involving Braley, Tanenbaum and Bell are complex. Rogers owns a 37.5 per cent stake in MLSE. Bell also owns 37.5 per cent while Tanenbaum owns 25 per cent. Rogers reportedly does not want to be involved in any ownership group to buy the Argos. BMO Field is owned by the city and managed by MLSE.

Can Rogers block a deal?

Yes. Rogers is playing hard ball with this deal, according to sources and previous reports. Rogers owns Sportsnet, a competing network, and doesn’t stand to gain much from a deal.

What is the financial breakdown?

The total cost of the renovation was pegged at $120 million, with MLSE putting up the initial $90 million. Here’s how the rest of the financing breaks down: A $10 million loan from city, $10 million offered by the new Argo owners and $10 million possibly from the province, but nothing has been officially committed.

How much are the Argos being sold for?

Braley won’t speak publicly about a sale price for the Argos while the negotiations are going on.

Why are TFC fans upset?

BMO was Canada’s first soccer-specific stadium, and home to the national soccer team, as well as Toronto FC. In 2010, natural grass was installed. Supporters of Toronto FC argue that by sharing the field with the Argos, the field will be destroyed by the football team.

Will this result in the Argos moving practice facilities?

No, the Argos will still continue to practise on an artificial turf field at Downsview Park.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Originally Posted by elly63

It's all about ticket scarcity and maximizing revenues, that's the trend. Fewer seats (that will always be filled and harder to come by) for football fans, more patio space to attract younger audiences (casual "event" fans).

I'm totally with you on that front, but 27k is still too small for Calgary.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by elly63

It's all about ticket scarcity and maximizing revenues, that's the trend. Fewer seats for football fans, more patio space to attract younger audiences (casual "event" fans).

There is a point where you actually do go too small for the market though. This will tend to push fans away because it becomes unattainable. The CFL has always been much more accessible and fan-centric than other leagues, so it could backfire, especially in a strong market. In the strong markets, I would argue a couple thousand on the too small side could do more harm than a couple thousand on the too large side.

All the smaller stadiums built/adjusted downward have been in weak markets where the stadium size selected was actually at about or slightly above recent average attendance levels. It's one thing to closer align supply and demand... and quite another to try to artificially limit supply in order to attempt to increase demand.

Just something to be careful with.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

But yes, I take your point... I'm not sure what need there would be for a stadium in connection with a World's Fair. At the time BC Place was conceived, Empire Stadium was not even 30 years old, so it's not like it was falling apart. Maybe between Expo's needs and the desire for baseball, that was enough to justify a new stadium.

The baseball angle sounds plausible. BC Place was quite similar to the Metrodome in Minneapolis.

As for the Expo, Vancouver's was supposed to be a small-scale Expo (they have small scale and large scale Expos, the larger scale ones are less frequently held) but the BCers decided to ramp it up a bit and Expo 86 ended up being on steroids as far as small scale Expos go. (Or at least went in those days...)

[king10]

BMO would only be able to host 25 000 fans in football mode. Soccer mode is 30 000. The 5000 endzone seats are retractable to make room for the CFL endzone. Hate when writers fail to do their due diligiance.

I'm all for ticket scarcity and feel the stadium size in MTL, Hamilton, Ottawa are right for the east (25 000). Even 25 000 for the Argos at BMO would be great. Pack the stadiums in the east and create scarcity and demand. This helps out halifax as well(CFL pushing for Hali expansion within 10 years), they only need to build a 25k stadium to join the league instead of being pressured to build 30k plus like all the western teams.

The west is different though, fan support is stronger. Calgary should be at least the same size as Winnipeg and Sask though. If they want to decrease capacity a bit to create scarcity go for it. But 27 000 is too small, 32-33 000 is a nice compromise from the current 35-36 000.

[esquire]

^ Basically all the eastern stadiums would have roughly the same capacity within a thousand or two seats. Interesting.

I'm a bit surprised that the discussion is surrounding the Argos hosting Grey Cups at BMO, though... you would think that the larger capacity and climate protection would result in the game being played at Skydome. Renting temp seats for the Grey Cup would cut into the margins a fair bit, I would think. But maybe there would be interest in an outdoor Grey Cup there just for the sake of novelty?

[king10]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Basically all the eastern stadiums would have roughly the same capacity within a thousand or two seats. Interesting.

I'm a bit surprised that the discussion is surrounding the Argos hosting Grey Cups at BMO, though... you would think that the larger capacity and climate protection would result in the game being played at Skydome. Renting temp seats for the Grey Cup would cut into the margins a fair bit, I would think. But maybe there would be interest in an outdoor Grey Cup there just for the sake of novelty?

Perhaps a bit of nostaglia, throwback to the mud bowl and past grey cups that used to be held at exhibition stadium.

I think Rogers centre would still be available. grass would be permanent through the baseball season but ripped up at seasons end and installed again come march.

[Horus]

I'm guessing that the thought is that a) the SkyDome may not be configurable to football mode should the Jays get their natural grass installed and b) more of the money stays in the MLSE / Argos ownership sub-group pockets instead of a bigger chunk going only to Rogers for rental of the Dome

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Horus

I'm guessing that the thought is that a) the SkyDome may not be configurable to football mode should the Jays get their natural grass installed and b) more of the money stays in the MLSE / Argos ownership sub-group pockets instead of a bigger chunk going only to Rogers for rental of the Dome

The articles so far have been pretty unequivocal in saying that once MLB season ends, the doors swing wide open to using Skydome for whatever purpose. Apparently it's only during baseball season where they won't be moving the 100 level grandstands due to grass. And presumably Rogers wouldn't say no to a paying customer...

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by esquire

The articles so far have been pretty unequivocal in saying that once MLB season ends, the doors swing wide open to using Skydome for whatever purpose. Apparently it's only during baseball season where they won't be moving the 100 level grandstands due to grass. And presumably Rogers wouldn't say no to a paying customer...

That 's what I heard too. To me BMO for Grey Cups would be 25K (as King pointed out) + 10-15K in temp seats = 35-40K, vs. 53K at Rogers Centre - WAY more money if they host there.

[cjones2451]

[QUOTE=king10;7008835]BMO would only be able to host 25 000 fans in football mode. Soccer mode is 30 000. The 5000 endzone seats are retractable to make room for the CFL endzone. Hate when writers fail to do their due diligiance.

Is this configuration still in play? Over at RPB Forum (sorry for you being banned BTW) are saying that the North End would be ripped out completely and it is only the South that retract.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by cjones2451

That 's what I heard too. To me BMO for Grey Cups would be 25K (as King pointed out) + 10-15K in temp seats = 35-40K, vs. 53K at Rogers Centre - WAY more money if they host there.

That's exactly it... BMO seats 13-18 thousand less, and even at that one third of the seats have to be rented and installed on a temporary basis ($$$). I could see a one-time shot GC at BMO maybe to keep Rogers honest or whatever, but I can't see it being a recurring thing.

[Brik Chithaus]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The side from which the photo was taken (as well as the two ends) are three to four times as high as the short section you see there.

On purpose? Sounds weird. Doesn't look very good from this angle that's for sure

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Brik Chithaus

On purpose? Sounds weird. Doesn't look very good from this angle that's for sure

It's because the arena is built under the north grandstand of the stadium. There is a stadium grandstand on the outside right above that short section.

[blueandgoldguy]

Maybe that reported 27,000 number for Calgary is general seating

general seating = 27,000
club seating = 1500 - 2000
suite seating = 1000 - 1500
loge seating = 500
endzone plaza/lounge seating = 500 - 1000

Total seating: 30,500 - 32,000

THF was initially reported to seat 22,000 but that didn't include club seating or suites. With those additional seats total capacity is over 24,000.

[Oilkountry]

#1 How in gods name do ANY of you know what the seating will be for BMO? What if they plan it so that the Retractable stands for TFC games, get seperated in half and added to the sides of each end zone so its full length seating for CFL games? I'm not saying this is how it will be but you guys are speculating on Grey Cups and regular season attendance like you know whats going on.

Originally Posted by Brik Chithaus

^ wtf?!?

What do you mean WTF? The sens played out of that arena before the CTC was built. Its like 10,000 seats and has just had a substantial renovation. That's a pretty major building that is worthy of mention

[BretttheRiderFan]

What's the situation in Montreal as far as future Grey Cups goes? They're likely due for one pretty soon. Is the Big O still suitable in late November?

[Oilkountry]

To answer your question about Telus field in Emonton their has actually been talks of tearing it down which reminds me!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/will-rexall-place-be-repurposed-or-torn-down-1.3034078

Pretty Interesting stats.

17 cities with NHL franchises have built new arenas since 1994.
Eleven of those old arenas were demolished. Only three were eventually redeveloped for other uses.

I remember reading about the Staples center/Inglewood forum debacle, After going head to head for a few decades the 2 entities came together and signed a non compete. The old arena became strictly a music club and it has worked really well for LA.

I think Columbus Has a mediator which disperses acts and show to both the old and new arenas.

Vancouver makes 2 arena's work BUT both company's own 2 separate hockey teams and Vancouver is obviously way bigger than Edmonton. I think rexal should remain an arena with lower capacity. Tradeshows,rodeos,monster jam (dirt events), smaller concerts ect. Let the Big arena get full access to big artists, Big acts. and all sporting events. it would be a shame for an arena with such great bones to be torn down. I wish North lands owned the oil kings they could really take a good crack at it. Rogers place has 3 pro teams playing out of it. That's a ton of dates