The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Nouvellecosse]

Underground is always going to be more expensive when a reasonable alternative is available. Of course there are times in which such an alternative doesn't exist such as when there isn't any possible elevated or surface alignment without significant property acquisition or expropriation and demolition. This is often the case in dense urban settings. In those cases underground is the only reasonable option, but obviously those are not the cases I'm referring to.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I see. So, your point is they built it. Who cares. And, you keep saying the money is there. Prove it.

A rich society like Canada has the money for the priorities it sets.

There is always money of highways. If transit is a priority, then the money will be raised, either through additional taxes, or other revenue streams.

How do you think other world cities build extensive transit? They make it a priority and fund it.
How did Toronto expand transit in the post war era? They made it a priority, and the region became a transit success story.

Toronto is currently the centre of the largest spending on public transit in North America. The money is there, and we as a society can raise billions more, if transit really is a priority, like everyone says.

People gotta think big again. Toronto did not grow transit in the post war era by not thinking big. They did things like extend subways, to yes, the suburbs. Along with buses, etc.

The GO RER can be that kind of big vision again, if done right.

On a side note about money. We also have to find out why it costs, in some cases, double the cost to construct rapid transit here, than in other places like Europe.
My friend is studying this in uni, and he has been telling me how much more money we spend per KM in North America, compared to Europe, and other places, which have stronger labour unions and wages. So we can't use the wage excuse here.

[caltrane74]

Mafia?

[mistercorporate]

As funny as it sounds, the mafia is pretty strong in Southern Ontario. Not sure how involved they are in infrastructure but they are involved in a whole host of illegal activities such as drug dealing, prostitution and other related activities. Both the Italian and Jewish mafias are the ones I'm somewhat familiar with, though they are not the only ones involved in illegal activities, far from it.

[caltrane74]

Not only Mafia, but also just pure corruption with a lot construction companies that get use to sucking off them big government titties. Letting projects ride as long as possible, to collect as much money as possible, hell that ain't just a mafia thing. Its a Greed thing.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

A rich society like Canada has the money for the priorities it sets.

There is always money of highways. If transit is a priority, then the money will be raised, either through additional taxes, or other revenue streams.

How do you think other world cities build extensive transit? They make it a priority and fund it.
How did Toronto expand transit in the post war era? They made it a priority, and the region became a transit success story.

Toronto is currently the centre of the largest spending on public transit in North America. The money is there, and we as a society can raise billions more, if transit really is a priority, like everyone says.

People gotta think big again. Toronto did not grow transit in the post war era by not thinking big. They did things like extend subways, to yes, the suburbs. Along with buses, etc.

The GO RER can be that kind of big vision again, if done right.

On a side note about money. We also have to find out why it costs, in some cases, double the cost to construct rapid transit here, than in other places like Europe.
My friend is studying this in uni, and he has been telling me how much more money we spend per KM in North America, compared to Europe, and other places, which have stronger labour unions and wages. So we can't use the wage excuse here.

No, the money is actually not there if we have to raise taxes or redirect funds from other programs. It's very easy to talk about how other places manage to build cheaper or faster but, for the most part, it's not applicable here. There's a massive laundry list of things that set the price. Some are simply out of our hands. Others we can control but, would set the entire industry on its head or would cost too much to implement. Theory is great but, practice is very different.

The key is we are seeing significant investment in transit and the RER initiative is possitively huge. It has its flaws but, those can be easily remedied in the future. Success of this initial phase is the driving force for future expansion.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Not only Mafia, but also just pure corruption with a lot construction companies that get use to sucking off them big government titties. Letting projects ride as long as possible, to collect as much money as possible, hell that ain't just a mafia thing. Its a Greed thing.

Most projects are budgeted so letting them ride wouldn't be the best for the bottom line.I find big companies/government are habitually overcharged in the subtrades I have some familiarity. It makes up for a lot of the underbidding elsewhere as large companies maintain their oligopoly. Comparable Mafia mentality.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

No, the money is actually not there if we have to raise taxes or redirect funds from other programs.

Yes it is there. You cannot run a society by always cutting or holding tax rates steady. This is why we are having the fiscal issues we are having in many jurisdictions.

How is a society supposed to build anything, when in many cases, people are paying less tax than 30 years ago, particularly business?

The money is there. And people vote, even in conservative US areas to raise taxes to fund transit.

[mistercorporate]

Spending billions on subways to the suburbs is just plain stupidity. RER to the burbs and proper subway networks in the core is the way to go. There is absolutely no reason to have subways outside the 647 except for political vote-buying and "us too" small minded, Simple Simon myopia.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

A rich society like Canada has the money for the priorities it sets.

There is always money of highways. If transit is a priority, then the money will be raised, either through additional taxes, or other revenue streams.

How do you think other world cities build extensive transit? They make it a priority and fund it.
How did Toronto expand transit in the post war era? They made it a priority, and the region became a transit success story.

Toronto is currently the centre of the largest spending on public transit in North America. The money is there, and we as a society can raise billions more, if transit really is a priority, like everyone says.

People gotta think big again. Toronto did not grow transit in the post war era by not thinking big. They did things like extend subways, to yes, the suburbs. Along with buses, etc.

The GO RER can be that kind of big vision again, if done right.

My take on this is that MikeToronto is pretty much on the money here, and I express my opinion on the matter cautiously, because I somewhat disagree with his views on suburban rapid transit. He's absolutely right about Canada not "thinking big". Although the GO RER project is massive and is a game-changer, even in its slightly disappointing 1st phase, it would have been suitable to have made these decisions to double-track, electrify and remove level-crossings when Toronto was much, much younger. I say this because each of the cities I have lived in outside North America built and kept the electrified rail systems they put in place towards the beginning of the 20th century. Then, they have continuously expanded these systems and added metro lines, to create networks that we don't yet really fathom here. Some North American cities did what they could to keep extensive rail (though not all are electrified), even in the face of the car revolution, like Chicago, New York, and Philadephia.

I work as a property management co-ordinator for a large publicly-traded company and I can say that in my experience, the company has been spending vast amounts of money procuring and building exactly what the shareholders want. The mind boggles at some of the cost-overruns, but the point is that the company prioritizes the money they have (and borrow) for investments that people want. Seems to have worked at the city-planning level for a very long time, and I think that if we listen to the many, many Whippersnappers in this country, nothing will ever get done.

[miketoronto]

A place investing in transit and actually getting things done pretty quick. The Auckland rail upgrade project started in 2013 and is almost complete.

Taking account that Toronto's rail network is larger, it still should not be taking us into the 2022 and beyond to get the same thing done here.

From Auckland Transport:

"The redevelopment of Auckland’s rail network includes the building of new electric passenger trains (Electronic Multiple Units), station upgrades and electrification works.

"The last part of the electrification of the Auckland metro rail network is complete.

All of the urban rail network has now been permanently energised with the final section between Newmarket and Swanson being switched on.

The whole network should now be treated as being live with 25,000 volts at all times."

And get this. They are even building a downtown tunnel. Something Toronto does not even have on the books of thinking about.

"The City Rail Link (CRL) is an underground rail line linking Britomart and the city centre with the existing western line near Mt Eden.

The CRL will mean more frequent trains with more direct services to the city centre.
Allow 30,000 people an hour in peak.
Allow on average better than a train every 10 minutes at peak for most Auckland stations."

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Hopefully if the NDP win the election there will be extra funding for infrastructure and we'll finally get at least a solid timeline for the 8th Avenue Subway.

If they do happen to win, they aren't promising any more money. Because there isn't any. They are promising a new framework to distribute money, but cutting up the pot differently doesn't make the pot bigger. There will be enough money to finish the Green Line in the next ten years no matter which party forms the government.

Originally Posted by Mister F

Maybe you're right. But from what I've heard a subway is being planned so it seems that capacity and reliability are issues. Plus the 14 block downtown section is only a small part of the system and is fed by lines that are almost entirely separate from traffic. If, say, the 504 King route were closed off to traffic it would be over 100 blocks long on multiple streets, all of it through dense urban neighbourhoods. That's the kind of environment that needs tunnels.


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for converting a street like King to a transit mall. But it would be a stopgap measure only and would be no substitute for a proper subway line.

Sure, much higher capacity than 10,000 ppdph is hard to deliver with four car trains, and Calgary's downtown blocks won't accommodate 5 car (125 metre) trains.

But one (Calgary needs more capacity in the long run) does not follow the other (that surface running can't provide 10,000 ppdph throughput).

Toronto could make small incremental changes that would help a lot today. How about banning all left turns to start. But even little things are hard. As we saw with St. Clair it that was seen as some sort of an apocalypse in the media.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

The density will come after. You don't wait until the density comes.
Toronto build the subways before density, and it worked great.

If you wait for the buildings to go in, then people will just drive.

Seriously, look up Toronto history a little, before using the density excuse. Because that is what it is, an excuse.

And Bloor Street sits... low density... as does the Danforth...

You need a dual approach for subways and density to work in tandem. You dig the tunnels and then have a approach from the get go to get development going. The plan of simply building does not equal anything as 50 years + now Bloor street is still a low dense stretch for must of its run westward with nothing going on the Danforth to the East.

The province and city are inept with tunnel vision on this to not take advantage of this. I have heard from senior TTC staff that the development industry is keen to get going on projects because it is a easy sell to potential buyers to have direct access to the system.

The TTC does what it can but it does not have the ability to leverage it the best way possible (they won't turn down anybody's money). If developers are so desperate for access to the system they are willing to pay out of pocket for all of the construction for that link and then have bonus money on top of that for general station construction the the TTC is stupid to not take advantage of this versus building to cornfields in Vaughn where it can use municipal might to get any value from it. Much of the station construction for the Sheppard line was payed for by hungry developers who wanted direct access to the line. The Sheppard line was the best approach we have seen of this model, just in the wrong setting as the density was never there to warrant the construction to begin with.

The TTC could raise DRL funds by raising half the stations on Bloor and redeveloping them with developments on top via air rights for sale to the highest bidder. The biggest issue is the inability of Toronto Planners to see the value in that and communities who want to see the quiet sleepy station stay as is. Why isn't a major transfer point like St George not more robust? Why can't the TTC develop sub-grade retail concourses with developers to raise funds? These schemes are common place all over the world but Toronto can't get with the program.

[MalcolmTucker]

You vastly over estimate the land value for development. Better would be for the city to just sell transferable density credits that could be used within 500 metres or so of station entrances, with a way lower chance of appeal/rejection. That way you have no expensive need for building around a station and track, can sell way more density. Of course, paying the city directly for density might just be too radical for some people.

As for retail concourses, Toronto's main streets have so much street front retail is there much of a need? Especially when there are few transfer stations. The capital cost of building underground unless you are really constrained above ground just isn't worth it. It also doesn't help that bus transfers are within the fare gate zone, so you can't have the same store at say, Islington, serve both the major transfers to Missisauga and the apartment towers around there.

Toronto is trying with Union Station. We will see if the city can even make its cost overrun amount back, let alone the third, third, third cost sharing.

[P Unit]

News Release
Ontario Moving Forward with Finch West Light Rail Transit Project

April 27, 2015

Project to Bring 11 km, 18 Stops of Light Rail Transit to Manage Congestion; Improve Economy

As part of the largest infrastructure investment in Ontario's history, the province is moving ahead with the $1.2 billion Finch West Light Rail Transit (LRT) project -- a priority transit investment in the City of Toronto that will bring much-needed rapid transit to communities along Finch Avenue West.

The LRT will create 11 new kilometres of rapid transit along Finch West from the new Finch West subway station on the Toronto-York Spadina subway extension to Humber College.

The project will help transform Finch Avenue West into a vibrant community, accessible to motorists, transit riders, cyclists and pedestrians. The LRT service will also move more people, faster through the busy Finch West corridor than the existing bus service.

Through the Moving Ontario Forward plan the government is investing in priority rapid transit projects that will connect to the GO Transit network and other transit systems across the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area (GTHA). These priority rapid transit projects will increase transit ridership, reduce travel times, manage congestion, connect people to jobs, and improve the economy.

On April 16, 2015, Ontario moved ahead with its plan to unlock the value of certain public assets. This will provide the province with approximately $4 billion to build new transit and other priority infrastructure projects through Moving Ontario Forward.

Investing more than $130 billion over 10 years in public infrastructure ­-- the largest infrastructure investment in the province's history -- is part of the government's plan for Ontario. The four-part plan is building Ontario up by investing in people's talents and skills, building new public infrastructure like roads and transit, creating a dynamic, innovative environment where business thrives, and building a secure retirement savings plan.


QUICK FACTS

The province’s Moving Ontario Forward plan will make $31.5 billion available over the next 10 years for investments in priority infrastructure projects across the province and is expected to support over 20,000 jobs per year, on average, in construction and related industries.
Under Moving Ontario Forward, around $16 billion is being allocated to transit and transportation projects in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area (GTHA), and about $15 billion available for investment in roads, bridges, transit and other critical infrastructure in the rest of the province.
The environmental assessment (EA) phase for the Finch West LRT was completed in 2010. A separate environmental assessment for the maintenance and storage facility (MSF) for the light rail vehicles will begin soon. The MSF will be located along Finch Avenue West between Norfinch Drive and York Gate Boulevard. Preliminary design and engineering work on the project is ongoing and work is underway to ready the project for procurement.

[1overcosc]

Okay, so they are literally just copy-and-pasting most of the press release for each transit project. Then again a bujillion announcements is a great thing so I'm not complaining

[caltrane74]

Exciting that the province is going full bore on new LRT Lines. That's 3 LRT lines funding confirmed in the past 3 business days, so just one more to go, and it makes if 4 out of 4!!

Hope all this investment drives some real economic development on Finch, that area could really use a pick me up!

[Beedok]

Why are they still talking about the GTHA if the H isn't getting anything?

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Why are they still talking about the GTHA if the H isn't getting anything?

Tomorrow is day 4, Hamilton might be in for a surprise, but it's unlikely they will get anything, because seems like the City Council and Residents voted against putting an LRT downtown on the busiest line (route).

A better announcement will be funding the Electrification of the Lakeshore Line (At least with regards to Hamilton)

[SteelTown]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Tomorrow is day 4, Hamilton might be in for a surprise, but it's unlikely they will get anything, because seems like the City Council and Residents voted against putting an LRT downtown on the busiest line (route).

A better announcement will be funding the Electrification of the Lakeshore Line (At least with regards to Hamilton)

We did? City Council voted for LRT for the B-Line. The Mayor is pro-LRT as well. Mayor Eisenberger was even the former CEO of the Canadian Urban Institute so obviously he's super pro LRT.

It's just the Liberals dangling a carrot at Hamilton.