The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Calgary's LRT once the four car upgrade happens this fall will handily handle similar numbers, and that is with the capacity loss that comes from interlining.

Hopefully if the NDP win the election there will be extra funding for infrastructure and we'll finally get at least a solid timeline for the 8th Avenue Subway.

[SkahHigh]

The AMT will be abolished. It'll be announced monday by Transports Minister Robert Poëti.

The Réseau des transports métropolitain (RTM) or Metropolitan Transport Network will take over commuter rail and all 9 bus agencies operated by intermunicipal transport councils.

The Agence régionale de transport (ART) or Regional Transport Agency will be planning all transit for Montreal.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

LRT lines (or even Streetcar Lines) connecting the Danforth Subway Stations to downtown might be able to do the trick of the DRL without the expense. Might be something the government will look into, if funding cannot be arranged.

I love streetcars. But what is this obsession with them and LRT over the past decade?

Sometimes a city just needs to go underground. They understood this in 1900, and now we have people who want to keep everything aboveground.

Toronto already has a streetcar DRL, and it is called the 505 and 504 streetcars.
I took one of them to school everyday, from Broadview, instead of the subway all the way down. It is a 20 minute ride just from Broadview to downtown.

Clearly true rapid transit is needed, and that means either a subway line, or an aboveground rail service on the GO tracks.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

The AMT will be abolished. It'll be announced monday by Transports Minister Robert Poëti.

The Réseau des transports métropolitain (RTM) or Metropolitan Transport Network will take over the commuter rail and all 19 bus agencies operated by intermunicipal transport councils.

The Agence régionale de transport (ART) or Regional Transport Agency will be planning all transit for Montreal.

This is a huge game-changer!

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I love streetcars. But what is this obsession with them and LRT over the past decade?

Sometimes a city just needs to go underground. They understood this in 1900, and now we have people who want to keep everything aboveground.

Toronto already has a streetcar DRL, and it is called the 505 and 504 streetcars.
I took one of them to school everyday, from Broadview, instead of the subway all the way down. It is a 20 minute ride just from Broadview to downtown.

Clearly true rapid transit is needed, and that means either a subway line, or an aboveground rail service on the GO tracks.

504 is a high capacity localized transit line. Just foolish to refer it to a DRL. The sheer number of stops is the largest impediment towards rapid transit on the east end of the line. Drop that to 5 or 6 stops and a very cheap DRL could be achieved not the I would ever recommend it.

[caltrane74]

Even a Semi-LRT / Streetcar that burrows under Paper with no stops until Dundas, and then turns onto a Dundas Grade Seperated LRT might be a magical solution?

Just the cost of the Tunnel Boring Machines to dig from Danforth to Dundas/and/or/Queen with no subway stations required to be built, everything else above ground when they exit at Dundas/and/or Queen, top it off with the new jumbo streetcars and Voilà!

[caltrane74]

York Street Concourse at Union Station (Opening Monday)

From the National Post

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/a-o...-new-concourse-before-it-opens-on-monday

[niwell]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

So you build separate tracks in a separate corridor if required.

Amazing the excuses we make in North America. Yet Joburg in a country facing huge financial and poverty issues, was able to build an electric high-speed regional rail project in no time. While here, we keep saying we have no money.

Replying to an older post but just catching up on the forum after Ontario Budget week (ugh).

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but this isn't the greatest example. The Gautrain is more like UPX than anything else. One of the lines even takes you from the airport to Sandton. It is an exclusive train service for those who can afford it, and prices aren't exactly cheap. Or at least not cheap if you are working class in South Africa. The masses that crowd the metrorail in Joburg and the Townships certainly cannot afford it. Metrorail is pretty much denounced as being unreliable and exceedingly dangerous. The 2 services even share the same corridor in some areas but guess which one is more reliable?

It's an example of charging premium prices for a premium service. Not that it isn't a quality project, or serve a niche that shouldn't be served. But maybe not at the expense of the rest of the train network.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Calgary's LRT once the four car upgrade happens this fall will handily handle similar numbers, and that is with the capacity loss that comes from interlining.

Maybe you're right. But from what I've heard a subway is being planned so it seems that capacity and reliability are issues. Plus the 14 block downtown section is only a small part of the system and is fed by lines that are almost entirely separate from traffic. If, say, the 504 King route were closed off to traffic it would be over 100 blocks long on multiple streets, all of it through dense urban neighbourhoods. That's the kind of environment that needs tunnels.

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Upgrading the streetcar lines, with reserved lanes, signal priority and the new jumbo streetcars is a sure fire way to increase capacity of all the lines coming in from the Bloor and Danforth Subway Stations, it will also take a lot of pressure off the Yonge Subway.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for converting a street like King to a transit mall. But it would be a stopgap measure only and would be no substitute for a proper subway line.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by niwell

It's an example of charging premium prices for a premium service. Not that it isn't a quality project, or serve a niche that shouldn't be served. But maybe not at the expense of the rest of the train network.

I agree. But the point was that they did get the project done, spent the money, and a lot faster than it takes us to build a second track.

If there is a will, then we can get it done and funded. The money is there. It is if we have a priority for transit?

Content removed

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I love streetcars. But what is this obsession with them and LRT over the past decade?

Sometimes a city just needs to go underground. They understood this in 1900, and now we have people who want to keep everything aboveground.

Toronto already has a streetcar DRL, and it is called the 505 and 504 streetcars.
I took one of them to school everyday, from Broadview, instead of the subway all the way down. It is a 20 minute ride just from Broadview to downtown.

Clearly true rapid transit is needed, and that means either a subway line, or an aboveground rail service on the GO tracks.

Unfortunately we've blown our subway budget on silly extensions into Vaughan and Scarborough where LRT would have and should have been built. Suburban Toronto and Rob Ford have helped delay the DRL possibly by decades. Hopefully we can use common sense and actually listen to what all the experts are saying. That the DRL is the top priority for the subway system not more suburban lines. Doing the right thing is not always the most popular with voters. That subway extension was nothing more then an over priced tunnel to buy votes.

Subways Subways Subways is not the way to build a city. Only Ford and his nation of sheep thought that way. Many large global cities are building LRT's in their burbs and they work just fine. And the 505 and 504 are not a DRL, single drivers in their cars turn those routes into traffic nightmares. Hardly a relief line lol.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Unfortunately we've blown our subway budget on silly extensions into Vaughan and Scarborough where LRT would have and should have been built. Suburban Toronto and Rob Ford have helped delay the DRL possibly by decades. Hopefully we can use common sense and actually listen to what all the experts are saying. That the DRL is the top priority for the subway system not more suburban lines.

No we have not blown our budget. If transit is a priority, we will fund further extensions.

We need rapid transit expansion in both downtown and the suburbs.
Toronto's transit success comes from having both. It is not an either or.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

No we have not blown our budget. If transit is a priority, we will fund further extensions.

We need rapid transit expansion in both downtown and the suburbs.
Toronto's transit success comes from having both. It is not an either or.

You are right you need more transit in the suburbs, but you don't need more subways until the density increases.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

You are right you need more transit in the suburbs, but you don't need more subways until the density increases.

The density will come after. You don't wait until the density comes.
Toronto build the subways before density, and it worked great.

If you wait for the buildings to go in, then people will just drive.

Seriously, look up Toronto history a little, before using the density excuse. Because that is what it is, an excuse.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

The density will come after. You don't wait until the density comes.
Toronto build the subways before density, and it worked great.

If you wait for the buildings to go in, then people will just drive.

Seriously, look up Toronto history a little, before using the density excuse. Because that is what it is, an excuse.

The problem is that the existing density in the suburbs is so much less than the density in the inner city (the old suburbs). If we are going to build subways we need to build them first where it is more dense AND where there is severe crowding on existing transit. This will decrease crowding and increase useage.
Building LRT is a reasonable choice because it can go on various right of ways, have a scalable capacity, can be operated in any fashion from a streetcar type operation, to a separated right of way , to a tunnel and can be automated. When there is only so much money it makes more sense to build the DRL before building subways in Scarborough. This puts the subway in an area that will maximize the full potential of a subway long before Scarborough.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Building LRT is a reasonable choice because it can go on various right of ways, have a scalable capacity, can be operated in any fashion from a streetcar type operation, to a separated right of way , to a tunnel and can be automated. When there is only so much money it makes more sense to build the DRL before building subways in Scarborough. This puts the subway in an area that will maximize the full potential of a subway long before Scarborough.

I am sorry that full trains departing terminal stations in Scarborough is considered not high enough ridership for a subway.

Also, densities in the outer suburbs are actually pretty high, and approach that of the inner city neighborhoods.
Have you seen developments in the outer suburbs? They have smaller yards or nonexistent yards, that inner city homes actually have more land. I would not be surprised if these developments approach the density of the cherished inner city areas.
The only difference is there is no walkable commercial strip. But the density is there.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Unfortunately we've blown our subway budget on silly extensions into Vaughan and Scarborough where LRT would have and should have been built. Suburban Toronto and Rob Ford have helped delay the DRL possibly by decades. Hopefully we can use common sense and actually listen to what all the experts are saying. That the DRL is the top priority for the subway system not more suburban lines. Doing the right thing is not always the most popular with voters. That subway extension was nothing more then an over priced tunnel to buy votes.

Subways Subways Subways is not the way to build a city. Only Ford and his nation of sheep thought that way. Many large global cities are building LRT's in their burbs and they work just fine. And the 505 and 504 are not a DRL, single drivers in their cars turn those routes into traffic nightmares. Hardly a relief line lol.

What I find odd is that the suburban extensions seem to be expensive underground construction rather than cost saving surface or elevated builds. Yes we can make the argument that underground lines have lower long term maintenance costs but there needs to be compromise and pragmatism when a city has so several large goals to accomplish.

[WhipperSnapper]

Surface or elevated is not necessarily cheaper. The Bloor Danforth extension to Kennedy was revised as an underground connection as it proved to be easier and cheaper than on the surface.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I agree. But the point was that they did get the project done, spent the money, and a lot faster than it takes us to build a second track.

If there is a will, then we can get it done and funded. The money is there. It is if we have a priority for transit?

I see. So, your point is they built it. Who cares. And, you keep saying the money is there. Prove it.