Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[WarrenC12]

^^^^^

Well said!

[officedweller]

I think what it amounts to is people taking or being given a "snapshot" from an ongoing and ever evolving process.

The root "cause" of that is the public's current and incessant need to have so much information it's as if they were micromanaging the process.

And the public is not satisfied with a response of "we don't know yet" or "it hasn't been decided yet".

The information disseminated to the public must be simple and clear enough that it can be understood by all manner of people, so do you:
- add qualifications and "details" (at the risk of inciting protests for a 1% possible outcome)? or
- just provide a "summary" that paints a pretty picture (taking the risk that the 99% outcome will occur)?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

People are upset because something very close to "flawless execution" is what was promised of (and sold to) them. EGRT said there would be no traffic disruptions caused by tunnelling. EGRT said after the first sinkhole that it wouldn't happen again. When it happened again (at the very next possible recurrence) they took expensive and disruptive measures that delayed the project for 6 months. When it happened YET again (at the very next possible occasion) there was even more severe disruption.

People don't like being lied to, even though I do think the recent complaints from Glenayre were over the top.


And people don't like "bait and switch" like the Klahanie elevated section, and the cut-and-cover at Cambie, and now apparently, at Inlet Centre Station.

Many comments are made here complaining about people being uninformed. The root cause of this is that people are repeatedly mis-informed by "experts"

The foul language and goofy icon in your post are rude insults to people (residents, neighbours, voters, taxpayers) who are genuinely concerned.

No, people are upset because they are self entitled and expect instant gratification. No one from EGRT "lied", and that contractor has been the most open, honest and communicative that any others building projects in the Metro Vancouver. And the Klahanie situation was no bait and switch, it was clearly labeled in the map. The only reason why EGRT admitted fault is for good customer service. Sort of like how a store clerk would admit fault to a rude customer because "customer is always right".

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

People are upset because something very close to "flawless execution" is what was promised of (and sold to) them. EGRT said there would be no traffic disruptions caused by tunnelling. EGRT said after the first sinkhole that it wouldn't happen again. When it happened again (at the very next possible recurrence) they took expensive and disruptive measures that delayed the project for 6 months. When it happened YET again (at the very next possible occasion) there was even more severe disruption.

People don't like being lied to, even though I do think the recent complaints from Glenayre were over the top.


And people don't like "bait and switch" like the Klahanie elevated section, and the cut-and-cover at Cambie, and now apparently, at Inlet Centre Station.

Many comments are made here complaining about people being uninformed. The root cause of this is that people are repeatedly mis-informed by "experts"

The foul language and goofy icon in your post are rude insults to people (residents, neighbours, voters, taxpayers) who are genuinely concerned.

Please show me a document / reference where this section was shown as not being elevated. From the get go I remember it being elevated (how else would it go over the rail line?)

[Olden Retreiver]

The elevated section at Klahanie was significantly extended to the west, and built higher than presented to anyone at the consultation phase. Fact and fact.

[finalcoolman]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

The elevated section at Klahanie was significantly extended to the west, and built higher than presented to anyone at the consultation phase. Fact and fact.

I wonder if a short tunnel under the CP tracks would have been at all feasible?

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

The elevated section at Klahanie was significantly extended to the west, and built higher than presented to anyone at the consultation phase. Fact and fact.

Is this the section between Port Moody and Inlet Centre Stations? Where does the elevated section start?

[Axe]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Is this the section between Port Moody and Inlet Centre Stations? Where does the elevated section start?

http://www.portmoody.ca/index.aspx?page=934

Everything you want to know is here.

The portion of elevated track near Klahanie is elevated in a different location from the approved plan / map.


The initial alignment drawing in 2009 included a reference to the line elevating EAST of Moray Street. When the final engineering design was completed in 2010, the submission for the Environmental Application included the drawing on page two of this map with the elevation starting to the WEST of Moray Street. This change was made for engineering requirements to accommodate the maximum grade of the line to clear the CPR tracks.

Why was there no consultation?

More than 40 public consultation meetings about the Port Moody portion of the Evergreen Line were organized by the Province since 2009. Three specific Klahanie meetings – the first one on November 23, 2009 - were also held. In addition, detailed Evergreen Line drawings have been online since June 2010, including on the Environmental Assessment Office website.

[Axe]

http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/epic/...fb8e19343b.pdf

Here are the plans

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Axe

Why was there no consultation?

More than 40 public consultation meetings about the Port Moody portion of the Evergreen Line were organized by the Province since 2009. Three specific Klahanie meetings – the first one on November 23, 2009 - were also held. In addition, detailed Evergreen Line drawings have been online since June 2010, including on the Environmental Assessment Office website.

Not to nit pick here, but the number of public consultations you make is meaningless if you proceed with a significant change after all of these meetings and don't have another one.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Not to nit pick here, but the number of public consultations you make is meaningless if you proceed with a significant change after all of these meetings and don't have another one.

If the overpass was altered due to engineering requirements, then what is there to consult the public on? Do the public have some role in determining the maximum grade of the overpass? Should the whole project have been reconsidered because of this? I don't see what a public consultation would have accomplished.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Zassk

If the overpass was altered due to engineering requirements, then what is there to consult the public on? Do the public have some role in determining the maximum grade of the overpass? Should the whole project have been reconsidered because of this? I don't see what a public consultation would have accomplished.

Explanation by the experts and placating the masses.

This is the reality of operating in the public realm, not to mention spending billions in tax dollars.

In fact this reminds me of the fuss people raise here when buildings don't resemble the renderings, or elements are changed during construction, and those are entirely private endeavors.

I have no doubt their are valid reasons vetted by professional experts, but some explanation is always nice... BEFORE it happens.

[Olden Retreiver]

Frequent consultation before the changes are made without announcement and explanation becomes the "bait and switch." Start publicly telling people who ask questions that they are self-entitled jerks and see how many "Yes"" votes you gain on the transportation plebiscite.

[SOSS]

It also doesn't help when maps like exist that show no elevation near Ioco.

link

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by SOSS

It also doesn't help when maps like exist that show no elevation near Ioco.

link

The linked-to map includes the following notation beside 'ground level:

* Except where required to cross existing roads, CPR tracks and creeks.

[SOSS]

I know. But people never read the fine print. Just like terms and conditions.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by SOSS

I know. But people never read the fine print. Just like terms and conditions.

Yeah, that's pretty much the issue here. And I'm sure even if info was presented differently, there could have been a "subject to change" or something like that, which is standard even if you are buying a pre-selling condo (hence the difference between renderings and finished product).

Unfortunately, people either don't bother looking into this or simply ignore it, then blame the provider if things don't go the way they envision. Self entitlement at its finest...

[Olden Retreiver]

Don't forget, after public consultation was complete, the height of the "hop" over the CPR tracks at Klahanie was increased to provide greater separation between the elevated line and an obsolete building (Koko's Activity Centre) that will soon be demolished. That increased height is the reason the elevation had to be extended to the west.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

Don't forget, after public consultation was complete, the height of the "hop" over the CPR tracks at Klahanie was increased to provide greater separation between the elevated line and an obsolete building (Koko's Activity Centre) that will soon be demolished. That increased height is the reason the elevation had to be extended to the west.

Is Koko's really going to be torn down? They have activities posted on their website through September. I can see that whole block all the way through to Inlet Station being developed eventually but information seems to suggest otherwise.

[Olden Retreiver]

Yes, an amalgamation of lots including Koko's at 3212 St John's is proposed for 7-storey mixed use development. This was essentially inevitable from the moment EGL was announced.

http://www.portmoody.ca/modules/show...ocumentid=1179

In the interim, if the concern was hooligans throwing rocks onto the guideway from Koko's roof, they could have rented a fence from Super-Save for a year or two.

http://www.tricitynews.com/news/228943431.html