TriMet/Metro Southwest Corridor Planning (Portland to Bridgeport Village)

[hat]

Pictures of "elevators/bridges, escalators and a pedestrian tunnel," in a document on the Metro site, describing the grade change from OHSU and Naito.

[maccoinnich]

Those diagrams make it look like Metro wants to build a giant Rube Goldberg machine.

I'm glad that a tunnel under OHSU still seems be under serious consideration, and that if chosen it will likely go all the way to Hillsdale.

[davehogan]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

I honestly wish we could just make Metro into a county/city so that these whackjobs would be diluted and we could get high capacity transit to our suburbs.

If the suburbs don't want my disposable income that's fine. There are plenty of places for me to waste money in Portland.

[babs]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

I honestly wish we could just make Metro into a county/city so that these whackjobs would be diluted and we could get high capacity transit to our suburbs.

Some of us "whackjobs" think the best way to serve Tigard and the suburbs south is to replace the idioic WES line with an extension of the Red Line along 217 to Tualatin. Way less expensive by using existing infrastructure, serves more people and provides better service for Beaverton.

[PDXDENSITY]

Originally Posted by davehogan

If the suburbs don't want my disposable income that's fine. There are plenty of places for me to waste money in Portland.

Poor philosophy that will encourage sprawl. We should be working together.

[PDXDENSITY]

Originally Posted by babs

Some of us "whackjobs" think the best way to serve Tigard and the suburbs south is to replace the idioic WES line with an extension of the Red Line along 217 to Tualatin. Way less expensive by using existing infrastructure, serves more people and provides better service for Beaverton.

WES has potential as a commuter line to Salem eventually. Removing it would be absurd. And MAX connects into a wider system... To oppose it makes not sense. You can get MAX AND other improvements. It's not one or the other.

[dubu]

Originally Posted by babs

Some of us "whackjobs" think the best way to serve Tigard and the suburbs south is to replace the idioic WES line with an extension of the Red Line along 217 to Tualatin. Way less expensive by using existing infrastructure, serves more people and provides better service for Beaverton.

We definitely need to extend that line to at least barbur and the green line to at least 224 would be nice. Those roads are bad because light rail doesn't go to them

[babs]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

WES has potential as a commuter line to Salem eventually. Removing it would be absurd. And MAX connects into a wider system... To oppose it makes not sense. You can get MAX AND other improvements. It's not one or the other.

WES is not going to Salem anytime soon. Frankly I doubt it will ever happen. We can't even figure out a way to afford the existing Portland to Salem Cascades route. It may not even exists much longer unless the legislature changes its mind on funding.

In the meantime, WES ridership stinks...and for good reason. It doesn't run most of the day, the stations are few and far between and don't stop where they need to stop. Then you have to transfer to MAX at BTC. If this is your idea of great transportation, you're insane. The concept was sound, the execution is awful.

Let's fix what we have. There is a great right of way along a busy, overcrowded highway which ties into an existing MAX route. By providing both an efficent route into downtown and cross suburb service between Beaverton and Tigard, you have the ultimate rail route. The issue going on is that Portland planners are telling the people in Tigard/Tualatin what they need rather than listen to what those who live in the area want. It's this type of disconnect that will doom further rail projects.

[PDXDENSITY]

Originally Posted by babs

WES is not going to Salem anytime soon. Frankly I doubt it will ever happen. We can't even figure out a way to afford the existing Portland to Salem Cascades route. It may not even exists much longer unless the legislature changes its mind on funding.

In the meantime, WES ridership stinks...and for good reason. It doesn't run most of the day, the stations are few and far between and don't stop where they need to stop. Then you have to transfer to MAX at BTC. If this is your idea of great transportation, you're insane. The concept was sound, the execution is awful.

Let's fix what we have. There is a great right of way along a busy, overcrowded highway which ties into an existing MAX route. By providing both an efficent route into downtown and cross suburb service between Beaverton and Tigard, you have the ultimate rail route. The issue going on is that Portland planners are telling the people in Tigard/Tualatin what they need rather than listen to what those who live in the area want. It's this type of disconnect that will doom further rail projects.

Sorry, I'm going to have to say master planning trumps idiotic preferences of Tigard and Tualatin to continue to induce demand by refusing transit and hoping for highways. We should have more central control of the transit master plan; these votes are political theater and obstructionism at the detriment of many commuters-- both car and transit friendly.

And it sounds like the WES should have more frequency to be viable, for sure. So we should do that, not scrap it.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

WES has potential as a commuter line to Salem eventually. Removing it would be absurd. And MAX connects into a wider system... To oppose it makes not sense. You can get MAX AND other improvements. It's not one or the other.

I completely disagree. WES was a ridiculously poor idea from the start because it was designed with a forced transfer in Beaverton instead of downtown, which means the line would only be useful to people who either begin in Beaverton or have a straight shot to Beaverton. The idea that people would bus to MAX then MAX to WES was proof that too many of the people who design mass transit routes don't rely on mass transit.

Let's say you live on Hawthorne. You take the 14 bus to downtown. You should be able to hop on the WES downtown, but instead, you have to transfer to MAX to get to Beaverton and then transfer again in Beaverton onto WES. WES never achieved the ridership numbers Trimet expected because that extra transfer is too inconvenient for most people. That extra forced transfer is brutal for commuters. And it's poor design. It's inexcusably poor design.

WES was a bad idea from the moment Trimet committed to Beaverton as a hub instead of choosing a downtown to Beaverton route. People who have cars probably have no idea what I'm talking about. They think the ability to transfer is a good thing. Go to Beaverton and transfer to WES. Easy, right? WRONG. It's ignorant. The idea that people would take a bus to MAX then take MAX to WES, then take WES to Tigard, Tualatin or Wilsonville is ignorant. And the low ridership numbers show that people aren't doing it.

Trimet spent 166 million dollars and 13 years of planning in order to build a route that serves roughly 2,000 riders a day, which even after six years of service is still nearly 20% below what Trimet expected ridership to be the first year.

I. Hate. WES.

Five Years On, Westside Commuter Train Bleeds Cash

Despite the economic rebound, more than five years of operations, and promises by TriMet, taxpayers are still subsidizing each ride on the Westside Express Service (WES) to the tune of $13.94 a trip. TThat's the most expensive subsidy of any of TriMet's fixed-route services and it's unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.

All trips on TriMet are subsidized by taxpayers, but trips on WES are subsidized seven times as much as bus rides and 20 times as much as each ride on a MAX line, according to documents on TriMet ridership.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

And it sounds like the WES should have more frequency to be viable, for sure. So we should do that, not scrap it.

No.

WES needs to use downtown as a hub rather than Beaverton in order to remove an extra forced transfer.

As currently designed, the route is bleeding money, underperforming in terms of ridership, and it prevents expansion further south to Woodburn, Keizer and Salem from being useful or even viable.

Trimet should scrap it.

[babs]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

And it sounds like the WES should have more frequency to be viable, for sure. So we should do that, not scrap it.

That's the problem, you can't increase frequency! The rail line is not owned by Trimet and P&W has made it clear that increasing frequency will impact their operations and will not allow Trimet to increase frequency. I believe there is room along much of the route to add MAX tracks next to it.

[babs]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

Sorry, I'm going to have to say master planning trumps idiotic preferences of Tigard and Tualatin to continue to induce demand by refusing transit and hoping for highways.

What transit??? Trimet has screwed up bus service in Tigard and Tualatin to the point where it's unusable and that's reflected in the ridership. They cut the old 12 line up to where you have to transfer to get downtown. There is no service to Tigard High School. Huge areas have zero service. The oldest buses in the system hidden in Tigard...wonder where the last of the high floor buses are in service? Look over to the suburbs.

That's what people who never leave Portland don't understand. It's not that the suburbs love highways, it's that we end up with the scraps. Looks at WES and the current bus routes as examples.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by babs

What transit??? Trimet has screwed up bus service in Tigard and Tualatin to the point where it's unusable and that's reflected in the ridership. They cut the old 12 line up to where you have to transfer to get downtown.

Yup. You have to transfer to get downtown and then transfer AGAIN downtown for a bus to reach your destination. It's insane.

I'll say it again. Trimet spent 166 million dollars and 13 years of planning on WES. A hundred and sixty six million dollars. On a route that's bleeding money. On a route with a forced transfer that isn't at the hub of most of Trimet's busses and light rail lines. On a route whose frequency can't be increased. On a route which only serves as a bottleneck, preventing its own expansion. $166,000,000 gone, before it even opened, and losing significantly more money than any other bus or rail route every day since then.

At least the Beaverton hub for WES is also a park and ri... hang on. It's not a park & ride stop? FACEPALM. People have to transfer from WES to get to a park and ride? FACEPALM. Of course, they can drive further to reach a park & ride stop... but then again, they might as well drive instead of riding WES in the first place.

Trimet would probably save money and improve service by shutting down WES and replacing it with shuttle bus service. I'm certainly not advocating bus over light rail, but WES represents everything that's wrong with mass transit. I hope that no one involved with planning that route is still working at Trimet.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

WES has potential as a commuter line to Salem eventually. Removing it would be absurd. And MAX connects into a wider system... To oppose it makes not sense. You can get MAX AND other improvements. It's not one or the other.

No, it doesn't. A Salem to Beaverton rail line that doesn't even serve Portland is a non-starter, and I can't believe anyone would think its a good idea. Please point to one example, anywhere in the world, where this type of service is in operation.

And it sounds like the WES should have more frequency to be viable, for sure. So we should do that, not scrap it.

Yeah, they should increase the service frequency to 15 minutes (like the MAX), switch to electric EMU vehicles (MAX), move the station to Washington Square Mall, run service from 5:30 am until midnight, and run the trains all the way to downtown.

Oh wait, thats MAX!

People who have cars probably have no idea what I'm talking about. They think the ability to transfer is a good thing. Go to Beaverton and transfer to WES. Easy, right? WRONG. It's ignorant. The idea that people would take a bus to MAX then take MAX to WES, then take WES to Tigard, Tualatin or Wilsonville is ignorant. And the low ridership numbers show that people aren't doing it.

Exactly, transferring in Beaverton means that you are adding another 15-30 minutes waiting for a train to come. But if its in the middle of the day, or after 6:30pm, the train is no longer running!

I rode the WES for about a year to a job out in Tualatin. It was great, having reliability in my schedule - the WES never got stuck in traffic. But I could only ride it about half the time, due to the limited hours, and it ate up a lot of time waiting for transfers.

[2oh1]

Not only does WES not not not absolutely NOT have potential as a commuter rail line to Salem, WES is so poorly designed as a rail route that it will prevent Trimet from connecting Portland and Salem in the future. And if Trimet were abysmally foolish enough to extend WES to Salem, WES would be useless for most Trimet riders.

Connect the dots and you'll hopefully realize how brutally obvious it is that WES, by design, will almost always be one transfer too many. And that's before taking any of the other WES issues into account, such as its frequency of service issues.

[bvpcvm]

Wait a second, hang on - WES was Washington County's idea, and it was their project until they foisted it on TriMet. There was never an option to go to downtown, because downtown's not in Washington County! Besides, there's no ROW that would get you downtown from Beaverton. So essentially, you've either got WES or nothing, unless you're willing to fund a MAX line. Don't get me wrong - I'm not thrilled about WES, and it was doomed from the start, but WES isn't TriMet's fault.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by babs

Some of us "whackjobs" think the best way to serve Tigard and the suburbs south is to replace the idioic WES line with an extension of the Red Line along 217 to Tualatin. Way less expensive by using existing infrastructure, serves more people and provides better service for Beaverton.

I have to agree, T̶r̶i̶m̶e̶t̶ Washington County* halfassed it with the WES, it should have been an extension of the Red Line instead. If there is ever a commuter rail system put in place, it should run from north of Vancouver, stop in downtown Portland (with maybe a stop or three in the metro along the line, and then down to downtown Salem.

[PDXDENSITY]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

Wait a second, hang on - WES was Washington County's idea, and it was their project until they foisted it on TriMet. There was never an option to go to downtown, because downtown's not in Washington County! Besides, there's no ROW that would get you downtown from Beaverton. So essentially, you've either got WES or nothing, unless you're willing to fund a MAX line. Don't get me wrong - I'm not thrilled about WES, and it was doomed from the start, but WES isn't TriMet's fault.

hmmmm... I smell a conspiracy. They knew it would fail because they designed it to, and they knew trimet would get the bad PR.

[bvpcvm]

Oh, also, because it got federal funding, TriMet agreed to run WES for no less than 20 years. So we're stuck with it for now.

Having worked in Salem, I would love to see some sort of commuter rail down that way, but 2oh1 is correct that Salem->Beaverton is silly. So then how would you get downtown? If you think P&W has been unaccommodating with sharing their rails, just imagine how willing UP would be to share theirs: not at all. The only remaining route is through LO, but that involves widening a narrow ROW through downtown LO and probably rebuilding the bridge to Milwaukie, and THEN dealing UP into downtown, which isn't going to happen. So, commuter rail wise, we're fucked.