St. Paul's Hospital & Health Campus | U/C

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by djmk

I have NO FAITH that St Pauls will still exists after the smallest of earthquakes. Even after all that earthquake proofing they do

I agree. Even with upgrades it will still be more susceptible to earthquakes than a majority of the buildings downtown. If an earthquake strikes hard enough to cause widespread injury and damage in the downtown core, the hospital itself will be a victim of damage.

Besides, hospitals can barely hold a busy day's worth of patients the way they are built, let alone an influx of thousands of injuries. And who wants to do surgeries where aftershocks can happen and the supply of power and water can be cut? Earthquake response is going to rely on moving critically injured people out of the damage zone and setting up large scale triage centers in parks (like refugee camps). A hospital close to the epicenter of a major Earthquake would be next to useless.

[vancouver604]

Originally Posted by djmk

I have NO FAITH that St Pauls will still exists after the smallest of earthquakes. Even after all that earthquake proofing they do

Well when the big one hits hopefully it will be quick and fast and painless, take us all onto the next world and a better place in heaven to create skyscrapers in the sky!

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by vancouver604

Well when the big one hits hopefully it will be quick and fast and painless, take us all onto the next world and a better place in heaven to create skyscrapers in the sky!

If we really get a M9.5

Really a worst-case scenario is going to flatten any building made of brick, wood or glass. The Tohoku earthquake of 2011 was a M9. Most of the damage from that quake was the resulting Tsunami. The 1964 Good Friday Earthquake in Alaska was larger and liquefaction sunk part of Anchorage. The entire length of the fault would have to rupture to get a M9+.

We need to have emergency responders on the Peninsula, but we don't need to necessarily have any "long term" stay type of care there.

But I find it weird that they would want to redevelop the old hospital land into seniors housing. It seems like seniors would be better served located closer to the hospital, not farther.

[WarrenC12]

Most recent studies put the big one somewhere offshore, to the west of either VI or Haida Gwaii.

Tsunamis for that side of the island/BC will be the biggest problem. Downtown is on bedrock. As long as modern buildings can withhold a little movement, the area should be relatively fine.

(knocking on wood furiously)

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Zassk

But Providence themselves don't want that. And it sounds like they want to consolidate both hospitals. This outcome is their best case scenario, not something imposed by big bag gov't.

The $850 million scenario that you're advocating isn't an effective use of money vs. the $1.2B scenario for the new facility.

Which is worse after an earthquake - sending people onto the peninsula to the old site for medical care, or sending West End people 3km east out of the peninsula for medical care? Remember that the hospital is currently serving far more patients from outside the peninsula than from within the peninsula.

Not very effective?! Its $400 million cheaper and is closer to a densely populated area. The Comox Tower which would have been first to be built, would be as earthquake resistant as any new building downtown and built on bedrock, not the loose, silty drained swamp of the False Creek flats.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Speaking of earthquakes, the new hospital will be build on reclaimed land build on rubble. Do you think it can be engineered to withstand liquefaction?

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Speaking of earthquakes, the new hospital will be build on reclaimed land build on rubble. Do you think it can be engineered to withstand liquefaction?

Actually the new hospital site is not on reclaimed land, it is on the former shoreline of false creek. Also only. Part of the site is prone to liquification, where the research building was slated to go. Don't have time to find maps but here is one. I know I have seen a better one with more info before. You can look for it. https://www.google.ca/search?q=vancouver...252Fwww%252Fmethodology.html%3B694%3B600

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Not very effective?! Its $400 million cheaper and is closer to a densely populated area. The Comox Tower which would have been first to be built, would be as earthquake resistant as any new building downtown and built on bedrock, not the loose, silty drained swamp of the False Creek flats.

The plan will take 15+ years, and when complete will not provide nearly the depth and breadth of services offered at the new site.

Providence Health Care picked this plan. They worked for years on the "existing site" plan as well. They know what they are doing.

I'm so tired of armchair internet experts picking apart years of work by real experts.

[rofina]

How can any of you credibly argue against this proposal?

The hospital is moving about 3 km, this means its moving to an area that the MAJORITY of the calls originate from.

Secondly, it need not be explained how much of a benefit it is to have a fresh start, and end up with a brand new, master planned, purpose built hospital and research facility.

This is absolutely a benefit to all of BC, not just Vancouver.

And lastly, we need some kind of education campaign on the boundaries in Metro Vancouver.

Its absurd how preoccupied people are with arbitrary geographical boundaries in the region.

I mean seriously? This is parcel is 500m out of Downtown, therefore completely unsuitable for a hospital relocation?

I'm all for debate and open discussion, but this is an absolute no brainer.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Not very effective?! Its $400 million cheaper and is closer to a densely populated area. The Comox Tower which would have been first to be built, would be as earthquake resistant as any new building downtown and built on bedrock, not the loose, silty drained swamp of the False Creek flats.

Silt is irrelevant. Any new construction will be built on deep pilings rooted on bedrock, and will be impervious to liquefaction. The site is no riskier than that of the towers going up at Rogers Arena. The only practical consequence of the silt is that they won't be able to build deep underground parking. But while you say the old location is close to population, the reality is that most of the population served by this hospital is closer to the new location.

[vancouver604]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Silt is irrelevant. Any new construction will be built on deep pilings rooted on bedrock, and will be impervious to liquefaction. The site is no riskier than that of the towers going up at Rogers Arena. The only practical consequence of the silt is that they won't be able to build deep underground parking. But while you say the old location is close to population, the reality is that most of the population served by this hospital is closer to the new location.

It's all good, it will be a welcome change, just as long as they keep the viaducts in service for another 15 or 20 years. By that time there should be apple or google driverless cars and ambulances (kind of jetson like) to cart patients to and from.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by rofina

How can any of you credibly argue against this proposal?

The hospital is moving about 3 km, this means its moving to an area that the MAJORITY of the calls originate from.

Secondly, it need not be explained how much of a benefit it is to have a fresh start, and end up with a brand new, master planned, purpose built hospital and research facility.

This is absolutely a benefit to all of BC, not just Vancouver.

And lastly, we need some kind of education campaign on the boundaries in Metro Vancouver.

Its absurd how preoccupied people are with arbitrary geographical boundaries in the region.

I mean seriously? This is parcel is 500m out of Downtown, therefore completely unsuitable for a hospital relocation?

I'm all for debate and open discussion, but this is an absolute no brainer.

The downtown peninsula is not an arbitrary geographic boundary. It is a topographical fact. Pre-contact the connecting spit of land between it and the rest of the city (currently part of Gastown) was intertidal.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Silt is irrelevant. Any new construction will be built on deep pilings rooted on bedrock, and will be impervious to liquefaction. The site is no riskier than that of the towers going up at Rogers Arena. The only practical consequence of the silt is that they won't be able to build deep underground parking. But while you say the old location is close to population, the reality is that most of the population served by this hospital is closer to the new location.

And are all the access roads built to a similar standard?

[Vin]

Funny that the government has built and is still building so many social housing apartments near the vicinity of the current St Paul's hospital/downtown south. There are also other health and support centres like Aids/mental health and an ambulatory station, etc. nearby. I say let's start building these around the Main Street station area from scratch. The current social housing around that area of East Van is deplorable, and we do need the supportive services. I guess the bare facts don''t sound as sexy and appealing now huh?

[Vin]

Oh, I gotta add that it would tickle my funny bones if I were to see doctors and nurses having a beer at the Ivanhoe pub. But I'm sure that will be gone by then.

[VanCvl]

Similar to the Olympic Village lands this land is extremely contaminated and it will need to be excavated for hazardous material disposal. Not going to be cheap...

The gravel lot right now is just on a capping of imported material to cap the contaminated soils

[spaceprobe]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The downtown peninsula is not an arbitrary geographic boundary. It is a topographical fact. Pre-contact the connecting spit of land between it and the rest of the city (currently part of Gastown) was intertidal.

However, downtown isn't defined by the geography, and neither is the service area of this hospital. St Pauls is a Quaternary care hospital, like VGH, and provides medical services that other hospitals in the region do not provide, include some things that VGH does not do. It services the entire metro area, and in some medical procedures, the entire province.

Most of the talk by everyone in the news and on these boards seem to only be focused on ER care. A hospital is much more than the ER, and in fact, it is the non-ER patients that require complex care and complex procedures that will greatly benefit from a modern, well designed, and efficient hospital.

As often mentioned, an urgent care center is good enough for the west end.

[WarrenC12]

I would also mention that there is a sentimental attachment to the current St. Paul's. But the excellent service and health outcomes people associate with it are because of the staff, despite the poor structure.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The downtown peninsula is not an arbitrary geographic boundary. It is a topographical fact. Pre-contact the connecting spit of land between it and the rest of the city (currently part of Gastown) was intertidal.

We are not Manhattan, we are not moving this across a bridge. We are moving it 3km to the most suitable, cost effective, and centrally located site available.

We are far too boundary obsessed in this region - its crippling our planning.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Vin

Funny that the government has built and is still building so many social housing apartments near the vicinity of the current St Paul's hospital/downtown south. There are also other health and support centres like Aids/mental health and an ambulatory station, etc. nearby. I say let's start building these around the Main Street station area from scratch. The current social housing around that area of East Van is deplorable, and we do need the supportive services. I guess the bare facts don''t sound as sexy and appealing now huh?

You raise a good point. For example the Doctor Peter Centre is located right across from St. Paul's, for a reason. There is also an issue of all the staff who currently take advantage of a wealth of affordable rental accommodation within walking distance. Now all they will be able to choose from is the tired woodframe buildings off Great Northern Way or overpriced OV rentals!

Moving a hospital isn't just about a hospital its about all the tertiary services around it. However I suspect they saw an opportunity to cash in on the downtown land value and went with it.