Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[CountyLemonade]

Change day was yesterday. The most notable changes were the addition of later trips on all TRAX lines on Saturdays and Sundays (for instance, the last Red Line to Daybreak on Saturdays leaves Courthouse at 11:55 pm instead of 10:35 pm), as well as the 850 State Street route in Utah County now running twice as often.

Essentially, we're slowly (very, very slowly) seeing the addition of transit service, a piecemeal restoration of the pre-recession glory days. However, as long as lawmakers drag their feet in funding transit service, we'll continue to see pitiful service across the system at night and on the weekends.

[SLCdude]

Originally Posted by CountyLemonade

Change day was yesterday. The most notable changes were the addition of later trips on all TRAX lines on Saturdays and Sundays (for instance, the last Red Line to Daybreak on Saturdays leaves Courthouse at 11:55 pm instead of 10:35 pm), as well as the 850 State Street route in Utah County now running twice as often.

Essentially, we're slowly (very, very slowly) seeing the addition of transit service, a piecemeal restoration of the pre-recession glory days. However, as long as lawmakers drag their feet in funding transit service, we'll continue to see pitiful service across the system at night and on the weekends.

That's great news!

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Originally Posted by Makid

Also, this is without the possible addition of the Mountain Accord: Trax up Little Cottonwood Canyon and possibly into Park City.

Just these (not counting the Mountain Accord) does show the large investment in LRT that the SLC area has per capita.

Question for the forum: The population of the Wasatch Back is supposed to increase into the ~150,000 range by 2050. With that in mind, What would be better public transit to the ski areas and Park City? Both of the following have been proposed separately, as well as conjoined in one large loop. Although the latter seems unlikely.


Team 1: Trax from U of U up/under Parleys Canyon to Park City

Team A: Trax up Little Cottonwood Canyon to Park City


Yes. They are supposed to be Team 1 and Team A. FIGHT TO THE DEATH! Or simply discuss it.

Originally Posted by CountyLemonade

Change day was yesterday. The most notable changes were the addition of later trips on all TRAX lines on Saturdays and Sundays (for instance, the last Red Line to Daybreak on Saturdays leaves Courthouse at 11:55 pm instead of 10:35 pm), as well as the 850 State Street route in Utah County now running twice as often.

This extra TRAX service is wonderful, but I believe the key to increasing ridership is by increasing the hours of daylight bus service. (frequencies, and hours of operation) This should be done before late night TRAX.

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Here is an image similar to the one with Light Rail, but with Streetcars.
ENJOY!




This really shows how tiny some systems are in comparison with others. The following is combined Light Rail and Streetcar.

[LeVaJe]

I like this one:

http://transitoriented.tumblr.com/post/8...tion-of-rail-rapid-transit-systems-drawn

[bob rulz]

Where is FrontRunner on that map? That's supposed to be ALL rail service in an area, right?

Originally Posted by Wasatch Wasteland

This extra TRAX service is wonderful, but I believe the key to increasing ridership is by increasing the hours of daylight bus service. (frequencies, and hours of operation) This should be done before late night TRAX.

I disagree. Late-night TRAX is absolutely essential. It's an embarrassment that TRAX would end service before 11pm. That never should have been cut in the first place. Now they need to extend it to 1am on weekends at least! I would love to be able to visit a downtown bar without having to call a cab or having a DD. I can dream, right?

I do agree that peak-service bus service needs some work. The 200 bus is 15-minute frequency and is packed to the brim every single time I'm on it. Surely that and a few others could at least be upgraded to 10 minutes, and some 30-minute routes updated to 15? And of course, the fact that so many bus routes end at 7pm, and all of them by 10pm, is ridiculous. Focus on the late-night service first, then upgrade the peak hour capacity imo. Start by making it more convenient and useful. That to me is just as, if not more, important than efficiency. Transit needs to reach as many people as possible to be effective. I can't count the number of times I haven't gone out past a certain time simply because the service ended too early.

Also I've said it before and I'll say it again - if they want to encourage people to use the bus, they need to renovate the bus stops so they don't look like places where you're going to get mugged. I wish more people would talk about that. So many bus stops are dirty, inconveniently located, or just plain uncomfortable. Even fairly close to downtown some of them look flat-out neglected.

[tygr]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Where is FrontRunner on that map? That's supposed to be ALL rail service in an area, right?

In very small text under the legend it mentions "Commuter rail lines not shown."

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by LeVaJe

I like this one:

http://transitoriented.tumblr.com/post/8...tion-of-rail-rapid-transit-systems-drawn

I love this! Thanks, LeVaJe!

I hadn't realized how very large UTA's service area is. I mean, if you were to draw a box around TRAX, it would be larger than Boston's heavy rail system. North to south, TRAX isn't much shorter than Chicago's "L". I did not know this, and I am genuinely impressed.

Restoration of late-night service is great. I agree that TRAX ought to take priority, but only to a point. They could go to 11:00, then run every half hour after that. That's only 4 trains until 1:00, which isn't too bad. And this will do very little good if the buses are not seen to as well. I'd say split it 60-40, 60 percent expansion of hours to TRAX and the 40 to buses. Then, once TRAX runs sufficiently late (and they finally get the BLACK LINE GOING!!!) then they could really go to town on the buses. I'd be good with this sort of plan.

And as for Park City, I don't think it's worth the effort right now. UTA and Summit county need to come up with a better way to fund the Park City Connect bus so that it is reasonably affordable and drastically more frequent before there is any serious talk of rails.

I think a light rail line up Little Cottonwood Canyon would be too slow to attract many skiers/riders. Not only is the old rail right-of-way in the canyon too twisty, and the right-of-way to connect to the existing network would need to be created all new, right through residential areas. It would end up being a UTA-subsidized tourist attraction for the few sight seers who would take it for a joyride. (I would definitely be one of them, but I'm trying to be pragmatic).

[Wasatch Wasteland]

For those who have been complaining about the "long haul" between draper and orem, check out the light rail in St. Louis, Philadelphia, and especially the heavy rail in san francisco. In comparison it really isn't that large of a distance.

Originally Posted by Hatman

love this! Thanks, LeVaJe!

I hadn't realized how very large UTA's service area is. I mean, if you were to draw a box around TRAX, it would be larger than Boston's heavy rail system. North to south, TRAX isn't much shorter than Chicago's "L". I did not know this, and I am genuinely impressed.

Heck, it's not much shorter than New York! Although this does show how sprawled out the Salt Lake system has to be in order to get to the population.

[asies1981]

City Council took the first step toward getting the transportation sales tax increase on the November ballot.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by asies1981

City Council took the first step toward getting the transportation sales tax increase on the November ballot.

We just had this, gas tax. How many more ways are we going to get taxed for the SAME thing?

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

We just had this, gas tax. How many more ways are we going to get taxed for the SAME thing?

Answer: Seventy times seven.

Originally Posted by Wasatch Wasteland

Heck, it's not much shorter than New York! Although this does show how sprawled out the Salt Lake system has to be in order to get to the population.

I don't necessarily mind that people choose to live so spread out as they do here, but I do mind it when they expect the same level of service that denser areas have. Comparing SLC to NYC in terms of service area shows that the costs of construction and maintaining the transit network/infrastructure can be somewhat comparable, but a comparison of ridership shows that the level of service required to serve the population is in no way comparable. Aka, we've doomed ourselves to paying a higher price per rider than denser cities simply because we're spread out more. That's just something we've got to accept. People who complain about how much UTA is 'subsidized' (I put that in quotes, because I sincerely believe that UTA is subsidized far less per passenger-mile than roads are) need to understand that they can't have their cake and eat it too. You do get what you pay for, even (especially) when it comes to UTA service.

So let them live way out in the sticks, and let them pay the consequences for it. As for me and my one-car house, I will be riding my bike and TRAX to work, and will read with delight on my phone as the train carries me home how the gas tax payers are 'subsidizing' my ride home (fair compensation for taking two years off my life via air pollution).

[SLC Projects]

[QUOTE=Hatman;6991978]Answer: Seventy times seven.


And based off of that is why government takes full advantage us the middle/lower class by blooding us dry.

[CountyLemonade]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

We just had this, gas tax. How many more ways are we going to get taxed for the SAME thing?

The gas tax provides zero funding for transit.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by CountyLemonade

The gas tax provides zero funding for transit.

That's not the argument I've been reading on here for those who are pro gas tax hike.

[CountyLemonade]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

That's not the argument I've been reading on here for those who are pro gas tax hike.

I think you're talking about the prospective sales tax hike. The quarter-cent measure that the legislature has now allowed counties to put to the ballot is separate from the gas tax.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by CountyLemonade

I think you're talking about the prospective sales tax hike. The quarter-cent measure that the legislature has now allowed counties to put to the ballot is separate from the gas tax.

The Gas Tax went up or is about to go up 5 cents that will go towards both roads and Mass Transit from what I've read on here and else where. Hence why I've been annoyed having to pay more for something I can't even use at this time. Not unless Trax can continue running til after 3:30 in the morning for us grave yarders.

[Hatman]

Yeah, this gets complicated.

The Utah legislature passed a bill that will raise the State gas tax. The State gas tax does not get used for transit projects, to my knowledge (there may be rare exceptions).

In order to get all the legislators to agree to this new bill, a provision was added to allow cities/counties to raise the sales tax in their jurisdictions. A portion of this sales tax pays for transit, but most of it pays for local improvements. A few posts back I discovered that 1/3 of local roads in Utah County are paid for by the gas tax. 2/3 comes from local funding, like the sales tax. (BTW, I'm not happy with these ratios. People say they pay for the roads with their gas taxes are so totally wrong!)

At the federal level, the Federal gas tax gets split three ways; most of the money goes to the highways account, a smaller amount goes to the 'Mass Transit Account' and a smaller amount goes to something called the 'Leaking Underground Storage Tank Trust Fund'. This actually makes some sense; most of the fuel taxes go to pay for roads like people expect, but then two other sources as well to 'mitigate' some of the damage that roads and 'car culture' promote. Mass transit is a more economical way to move people in dense urban areas, and because it is so negatively affected by the government's promotion of cars, it gets a 'mitigation' (though not nearly enough, and that's not just my own opinion). Another harmful effect is that fuel stored in underground tanks can leak and cause environmental damage, and so a funding source was set up to provide funding for environmental clean-ups.

(Another obvious problem in need of mitigation is air quality, but so far that is being addressed - however inadequately - by other means).

So picking apart the layers of taxes, we see that at a state level your gas taxes go to pay for more pavement. At the federal level they try to spread the money around more.

I completely understand frustration with new taxes. I'm not happy about a great many types of things I pay taxes for. But if we are raising taxes to solve a real problem with the best solutions, then I will quit my complaining and pay them. The problems we face are real; neither UDOT nor UTA have the money they need to keep expanding. That's not what we should be arguing about. What we can and should argue about is if the money that is being taken from us is being spent in the absolutely best ways possible.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

The Gas Tax went up or is about to go up 5 cents that will go towards both roads and Mass Transit from what I've read on here and else where. Hence why I've been annoyed having to pay more for something I can't even use at this time. Not unless Trax can continue running til after 3:30 in the morning for us grave yarders.

The Gas Tax increase is only for roads.

The Sales Tax increase would be for Mass Transit and roads.

I think in time, we will see Trax run for greater hours. I think this will be after bus service reaches the 24 hour point first though.

Currently only the Green and the planned Black Trax lines can run 24/7. This is because of track sharing with freight during the early morning hours. Of course this may change in time but I wouldn't expect it in the next 20 years.

This leaves us 2 Trax lines, maybe Frontrunner and 100% of the bus routes that have the potential for 24/7 operations.

For phasing in 24 hour operations, I would expect 3 North South routes (State Street, Redwood Road, 13th east?) and 3 East West routes - 3500 South (including Maxx), 5400 South and 90th South for now.

Trax would be phased with the Black line being first followed by Green.

I think once the Black Line and the 6 above Bus (BRT) routes are operating at 24 hour intervals, we will see additional lines increase late night hours. I think maybe 1 or 2 additional lines a year for the 5 or so years (Up to 16 24 hour bus routes and 2 Trax lines).

For any of the above to happen, the sales tax increase must pass. Without it, mass transit will never be able to run on a 24/7 schedule and will therefore never be able to benefit you directly.

So, rather than bemoan the increase, you should be supporting the increase as well as supporting some funds be directed to late night/24 hour service.

Doing this, you would receive more support here as well as in the general community. The tax will happen, if not this year then next year. Don't focus energy on what it will cost you, focus the energy on getting you and others direct benefits like increased service frequency, late night service additional transit to the airport (Bangerter BRT, Trax Black line, etc).

Hopefully this hasn't come across as harsh but rather than be negative, look for the positive.

Even if it doesn't benefit you directly with transit, the improved air quality and development increase from this will lead to increase employment, services, maintaining the current tax rate longer, increased life span and increased wages. All of these will benefit everyone, yet people want to complain about the $25.00 on average increase in their yearly spend if the sales tax increase passes.

I personally think that getting all of that for $25 a year is worth it. I also feel many others do as well.

[jtrent77]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

The Gas Tax went up or is about to go up 5 cents that will go towards both roads and Mass Transit from what I've read on here and else where. Hence why I've been annoyed having to pay more for something I can't even use at this time. Not unless Trax can continue running til after 3:30 in the morning for us grave yarders.

By this logic, people without kids should be annoyed that their taxes go to schools; or medicaid when I am not old yet.