SkyCity Centre Winnipeg | 45F | 575 Ft | 175.26 M | Cancelled

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Adhoc just seems to be a creative/web development agency that specializes in real estate. There's no way it's a financial partner/backer.

They are. Who mentioned financial backers in the post? A partnership is a group that comes together for a common goal or interest.

McOuat Partnership is the Real Estate Marketing firm that they are involved with as well, nothing to do with the financing of this project?

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Check out this site, i wonder where they got all those images from.

http://design-change.beforeitsnews.com/o...peg-undergoes-design-change-2503130.html

Including Tritondreya's renderings.

3 were images they provided, 2 are Tritondreya's. He added his rendering to the Skyscraper Diagrams listings.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by Cyro

They are. Who mentioned financial backers in the post? A partnership is a group that comes together for a common goal or interest.

McOuat Partnership is the Real Estate Marketing firm that they are involved with as well, nothing to do with the financing of this project?

Just the way it was mentioned they were involved kind of sounded (to me) like it was alluding to actually being financially involved, as we know they're on the hunt for that.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by buzzg

sounded (to me) like it was alluding to

It happens.

[JamieDavid Exchange]

Heard from an insider source that Extra Foods is the anchor grocer for Skycity. Sorry, I can't reveal a name.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by JamieDavid Exchange

Heard from an insider source that Extra Foods is the anchor grocer for Skycity. Sorry, I can't reveal a name.

I doubt it. There's an Extra Foods five minutes away on Goulet.

[pkirvan]

Originally Posted by JamieDavid Exchange

Heard from an insider source that Extra Foods is the anchor grocer for Skycity.

Fortress has been promising to reveal the grocery store tenant any day now for over two years. They've been in 'negotiations' with 'major chains' for more than two years. Anything you've heard, unless it is from the grocery chain itself, it just a continuation of the same drivel.

Originally Posted by JamieDavid Exchange

Sorry, I can't reveal a name.

Don't worry about it. There's nobody credible inside Fortress anyways, so you can keep it to yourself.

[CoryB]

Looking at the grocery landscape in Canada Sobey's is still busy dealing with their Safeway acquisition. Just recently Sobey's converted their dairy to Lucerene (the Safeway store brand). On a local perspective they still have more stores to close, hello Lag, Kenaston and Burrows with stores next to each other. They also are not going to have two warehouses in Winnipeg in five years.

That said, Sobey's is off the table in terms of looking at any net new locations for the near to mid term. That leaves only Loblaws as the only national chain which might be in discussions with SkyCity. That said Extra Foods still seems like an odd banner choice. They are actively working on withdrawing it from the Winnipeg market and its minimalistic service and selection doesn't seem to be in keeping with the more upscale image the developer is going for.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

That said, Sobey's is off the table in terms of looking at any net new locations for the near to mid term. That leaves only Loblaws as the only national chain which might be in discussions with SkyCity. That said Extra Foods still seems like an odd banner choice. They are actively working on withdrawing it from the Winnipeg market and its minimalistic service and selection doesn't seem to be in keeping with the more upscale image the developer is going for.

With the arrival of No Frills, Extra Foods could conceivably get a push slightly upmarket to better distinguish the two. The Marion location is an example of an Extra Foods that has received a bit of a makeover to make it look less bargain-basement. Extra Foods is not so much a deep discount place like No Frills as it is a smaller version of RCSS.

For what it's worth, Loblaws could use one of several other banners they have... Your Independent Grocer would be one such example.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by JamieDavid Exchange

Heard from an insider source that Extra Foods is the anchor grocer for Skycity. Sorry, I can't reveal a name.

wow, now that's a selling feature to have a condo in that building. add a dollar store and magic cuts and life would be grand!

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

With the arrival of No Frills, Extra Foods could conceivably get a push slightly upmarket to better distinguish the two. The Marion location is an example of an Extra Foods that has received a bit of a makeover to make it look less bargain-basement. Extra Foods is not so much a deep discount place like No Frills as it is a smaller version of RCSS.

For what it's worth, Loblaws could use one of several other banners they have... Your Independent Grocer would be one such example.

The grocery business is exceptionally low margin. As a consequence of that, they're low risk. Grocery stores don't make bets on where people are going to be - they take their chances where people already are. For instance, in newer subdivisions, they wait until there's a certain critical mass before they start to build because they need customers from day one. They don't build and hope that the area fills out - they wait for the area to fill out and then they build.

Downtown is no different. Until you've got residents well established, there isn't going to be a grocer betting on population growth.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

The grocery business is exceptionally low margin. As a consequence of that, they're low risk. Grocery stores don't make bets on where people are going to be - they take their chances where people already are. For instance, in newer subdivisions, they wait until there's a certain critical mass before they start to build because they need customers from day one. They don't build and hope that the area fills out - they wait for the area to fill out and then they build.

Downtown is no different. Until you've got residents well established, there isn't going to be a grocer betting on population growth.

But isn't this demand already in place? In recent years, the only successful part of the Downtown Bay was its grocery store. There was clearly a market ready, willing, and able to shop for groceries downtown. Has this demand disappeared? Why couldn't a grocery store (connected to the walkway system) take over where the Bay/Zellers grocery store left off? Between residents already connected to (or nearby) the walkway system and 9-5 workers shopping on their lunch or after work there is demand already in place. New residential downtown (Glasshouse, Skycity, or whatever) would only add to the existing demand.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

But isn't this demand already in place? In recent years, the only successful part of the Downtown Bay was its grocery store. There was clearly a market ready, willing, and able to shop for groceries downtown. Has this demand disappeared? Why couldn't a grocery store (connected to the walkway system) take over where the Bay/Zellers grocery store left off? Between residents already connected to (or nearby) the walkway system and 9-5 workers shopping on their lunch or after work there is demand already in place. New residential downtown (Glasshouse, Skycity, or whatever) would only add to the existing demand.

There's already a Family Foods on Donald that serves those places well. There's also the Giant Tiger, Dollarama, and a couple of specialty grocers within a very short radius. There's food downtown for most of those who live there. The issue of a grocer is only raised by the white middle class who are accustomed to a few of the typical vendors, but that doesn't mean it's dire. Those vendors know the market is mostly already served and that they aren't going to make a living servicing a few hundred people who need to see a Loblaws or Sobey's brand before they'll buy groceries.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

There's already a Family Foods on Donald that serves those places well. There's also the Giant Tiger, Dollarama, and a couple of specialty grocers within a very short radius. There's food downtown for most of those who live there. The issue of a grocer is only raised by the white middle class who are accustomed to a few of the typical vendors, but that doesn't mean it's dire. Those vendors know the market is mostly already served and that they aren't going to make a living servicing a few hundred people who need to see a Loblaws or Sobey's brand before they'll buy groceries.

Family Foods, Giant Tiger and Dollarama were there before the closure of the Bay's Grocery -- it's not like they stepped in to fill the demand. My point is that there was a market for another grocery store downtown -- particularly one that connected to the walkway system -- and that market still exists. You can't say this demand is imaginary or some figment of the middle class imagination. I'm not saying the situation is dire or that people downtown don't have access to food. However, just because you can get your basic grocery needs at Dollarama doesn't mean there isn't a market for a full serve grocery store downtown. I think the skywalk link would be key for it to work.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

The grocery business is exceptionally low margin. As a consequence of that, they're low risk. Grocery stores don't make bets on where people are going to be - they take their chances where people already are. For instance, in newer subdivisions, they wait until there's a certain critical mass before they start to build because they need customers from day one. They don't build and hope that the area fills out - they wait for the area to fill out and then they build.

Downtown is no different. Until you've got residents well established, there isn't going to be a grocer betting on population growth.

With that said, I wonder how much longer it will be before we see a construction of a grocery store within Waverly West? Or given the potential lack of street level parking in Bridgewater Centre (the supposed retail hub of that development) would that site be limited to small specialized, local grocer? And subsequent to that, would people living there continue to rely on the Sobeys and Safeway on Kenaston and the SuperStore on Bison drive as their only choices for a chain grocery retailer in the area?

[BAKGUY]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Family Foods, Giant Tiger and Dollarama were there before the closure of the Bay's Grocery -- it's not like they stepped in to fill the demand. My point is that there was a market for another grocery store downtown -- particularly one that connected to the walkway system -- and that market still exists. You can't say this demand is imaginary or some figment of the middle class imagination. I'm not saying the situation is dire or that people downtown don't have access to food. However, just because you can get your basic grocery needs at Dollarama doesn't mean there isn't a market for a full serve grocery store downtown. I think the skywalk link would be key for it to work.

Exactly. As well as The Bay We even had Eaton's with fairly large grocery area. Now we have near nothing yet the downtown population has increased a few thousand more. Edmonton has a Sobey's downtown and they have less than 12,000 downtown where we are now past 17,000 in 2015... and on our way to 20,000 once the condos already started are moved into and hopefully Sky City as well.. I understand critical mass but where did all the business from THE BAY go? That was their number one money making dept. in that store for the past decade. It is just that their parent company no longer wished to be in the food game. I know people will comment if it was a money maker why are they not doing it? The food market went to Zeller's and The bay itself got out of food and does not carry it in any other market.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Family Foods, Giant Tiger and Dollarama were there before the closure of the Bay's Grocery -- it's not like they stepped in to fill the demand. My point is that there was a market for another grocery store downtown -- particularly one that connected to the walkway system -- and that market still exists. You can't say this demand is imaginary or some figment of the middle class imagination. I'm not saying the situation is dire or that people downtown don't have access to food. However, just because you can get your basic grocery needs at Dollarama doesn't mean there isn't a market for a full serve grocery store downtown. I think the skywalk link would be key for it to work.

Why are you getting defensive about this? There's demand for everything in this world. Groceries are only one thing. The idea that there is enough demand is what's at issue. Do you think there's a group of North American grocery executives who meet once annually over a bottle of scotch on the 30th floor of 201 Portage and conspire another year to keep a grocer out of downtown Winnipeg? This is complete nonsense.

They look at the market - that means density of residents at a certain income level within a prescribed area - and make their decision from there. And they've consistently decided it's either not a profitable idea or it's not profitable enough to justify the risk. You think Loblaw's and Sobey's aren't paying any attention to the transience of the downtown population? Or the rest of the retail landscape that has almost completely collapsed?

Urbanists act like Sobey's and Loblaw's don't already operate stores in Winnipeg. Like, if we could just get in front of a Sobey's or Loblaw's executive surely we could convince them of the prosperity awaiting them in Downtown Winnipeg. The people who have run Safeway, Sobey's, Loblaw's, Co-Op understand this market better than anybody blindly cheer-leading a downtown grocery and they're not convinced.

Stop trying to assert a reality that doesn't exist.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

With that said, I wonder how much longer it will be before we see a construction of a grocery store within Waverly West? Or given the potential lack of street level parking in Bridgewater Centre (the supposed retail hub of that development) would that site be limited to small specialized, local grocer? And subsequent to that, would people living there continue to rely on the Sobeys and Safeway on Kenaston and the SuperStore on Bison drive as their only choices for a chain grocery retailer in the area?

The Bridgewater Centre is issue is definitely a real one. That said, the area is already well served. I understand that Sobey's is probably the store that dies along with the merger (though CoryB is the expert here, for sure...), but that still leaves Safeway, Superstore, and Costco, along with a Bulk Barn all within a five minute drive. And I don't doubt the Sobey's lease will end up with another grocer.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by BAKGUY

Exactly. As well as The Bay We even had Eaton's with fairly large grocery area. Now we have near nothing yet the downtown population has increased a few thousand more. Edmonton has a Sobey's downtown and they have less than 12,000 downtown where we are now past 17,000 in 2015... and on our way to 20,000 once the condos already started are moved into and hopefully Sky City as well.. I understand critical mass but where did all the business from THE BAY go? That was their number one money making dept. in that store for the past decade. It is just that their parent company no longer wished to be in the food game. I know people will comment if it was a money maker why are they not doing it? The food market went to Zeller's and The bay itself got out of food and does not carry it in any other market.

That store closed last year because it consistently lost money. Rest assured the rest of the market is paying attention.

[pkirvan]

Originally Posted by BAKGUY

I understand critical mass but where did all the business from THE BAY go? That was their number one money making dept. in that store for the past decade.

Unless you have actual figures, this doesn't mean much. The #1 department of a mostly empty dying store is hardly something to brag about, is it? I live downtown and I did shop there when it was open- the produce was the worst I've seen anywhere (even onions were often rotten and those keep for months!) and there weren't a lot of people around, though admittedly there were more than upstairs. Now I shop at Safeway in Osbourne or at the Donald street grocery store which is expensive but not terrible.

I agree with you that the lack of a real grocery store downtown is very frustrating and maybe eventually there will be enough people downtown to support one, but things don't change overnight and the Zeller's store isn't proof of viability. Look up a few grocery chain quarterly reports- typical bottom line profit margins after taxes and everything else in that industry are in the low single digits. You don't survive on 2% margins by screwing around, least of all with this imaginary project run by a bunch of clowns with a long history of leaving their investors empty-handed.