DENVER | Main Development Thread #6

[mhays]

Build concrete instead of wood, and the added cost simply comes out of developers' profit margin? That one is pretty amusing. First of all, that would need to be developers plus their financiers, the latter representing most of the money. Financiers invest where they'll get a good return, with good odds of not losing their money instead. If your project is a worse bet than the stock market, you won't get money and won't build. Profit margins vary, but they tend to pull themselves back to a certain range -- pulled down by competition, pulled up because things don't get built if the margins aren't projected to be good enough.

You can legislate taste up to a point, with marginal success. The cost is almost universally higher prices due to process, materials, and so on. If the process makes developers control land for an extra six months that's a significant cost. If the process means more design work, that's cost. Any uncertainty means fewer will even start the process unless the margins are higher (equilibrium can be higher margins in some cities for this reason, but that omits the increased percentage of projects that don't get built).

As a general contractor that gets hired to build concrete and not much woodframe (in another city) I'd love for more projects to go concrete. But a lot of woodframe happens in my city too, for the same reasons.

[DownhomeDenver]

Will be going to Minneapolis in May. Excited to see just how much greater it is compared to Denver.

[Denverite]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

2. What you basically are saying distills into this: I hate everything. Don't ask me to give specific examples of everything. Don't ask me to give specific examples of what would be better than everything I hate. Also clearly as a hard working fellow who is completely unwilling to bring any evidence to bear to back up the "I hate everything part" besides "my friends also hate everything", I feel I deserve everything to get better.

Man, some of you sure get your panties in a bunch. Grow up, dude.

You're terrible at inference. That is not what I said. A feeble attempt to spin it? Why can't you accept a person's opinion anyway? I don't know the name of the projects off the top of my head. Besides, a list of projects that I personally dislike doesn't make any difference. You're just trying to corner me into a debate over each project. Not interested in that. More interested in understanding how and why it is there is a seemingly inordinate amount of average product with respect to the apartment projects.

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

I'm sure you're not at all unintelligent, lazy, or any other disparaging thing.. but seriously,

As I'm sure you're not... but seriously...

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

What exactly did you think the impression of your few posts would be? Catty friends who think it's imperative to call out filler infill as filler infill.

Wow. Just wow. If you're alluding that I'm trolling, then you just don't get it. This article that I posted came up today on a local friend's FB timeline feed. I read it and wanted to air my opinions and frustrations here. This is a website and a sub-forum for and about the urban fabric, almost specifically about building architecture. What is so hard to understand about that? Just because it's negative does not imply I hate Denver. Nor are my adult friends, who are educated professionals, with families, who are in their 40s, "catty" for commenting on what they physically see. And they in fact love Denver.

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

(probably one or two things honestly, maybe) but do you SERIOUSLY want Denver to be Dallas or San Francisco? Because if you do I think you're in a very small minority.

Again, I never stated I want Denver "to be" any other city. This has nothing to do with being another city. You could say I am comparing architectural appearance with respect to apartment and condo product in some cities. I've seen city comparisons all over the place on this forum. Is that not allowed?

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Finally, I don't know how long you've been reading the forums here

It's been awhile. I had started reading this forum since around 2002, maybe earlier. I registered in 2005. Five years before your registration date. I'm also a civil engineer. Have worked on high rise projects, residential subdivisions, big box and strip mall retail projects, and airports as well as interacted with architects, municipalities, and survived through many engineering and architectural review processes throughout my career.

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

but the last person to make a hobby out of hating everything Denver allows or did/didn't do to become the perfect super dense architectural digest centerfold utopia got so fed up with it all that he up and left...... to an island.

Not sure if you're serious or not, but the condescension by some would drive most anyone away. It's why I rarely post in here, but I do read it on a nearly daily basis.

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

the LAST thing Denver needs is everyone who wants to have a say gets to have a say in every building ever built.

What an asinine statement. Once again, that is not what I stated or what I am implying.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that, at least in some cities, there are probably better or more thorough design requirements than Denver. I don't know. Do you know? And since I don't know, does that mean I'm dumb, lazy, and only hang out with catty Denver haters?

Originally Posted by mhays

Build concrete instead of wood, and the added cost simply comes out of developers' profit margin? That one is pretty amusing.

I have prepared dozens of very complex cost estimates for projects on the engineering side. I make no claim that I am an expert with the knowing the development costs as a whole. Yes, timber is going to be a more economical choice and I would never propose it be eliminated as a choice. However, based on the rental rates these projects demand around here, I wouldn't have expected quite so many timber-based structures - thinking that residents want quality product for the price they pay. But, yes, concrete adds to the cost up front. However, the legacy and longevity of a quality product probably ends up being more lucrative in the end.

Just my opinion.

[Denverite]

Here's an article from last week that I disagreed with. Although this Brad Evans character and I probably agree on a lot with respect to "Denver Fugly" architecture, I like the buildings that this article has photos of, even if they are a bit angular.

http://www.westword.com/news/brad-evans-...st-fugly-new-buildings-in-denver-6626348

Irrespective of the guts, I think for me personally, it might boil down to that many of the larger scale apartment projects have too much monotony going on when considering their sheer mass. While the smaller condo or townhome projects that may have many of the same characteristics do come off a bit better at that scale. To me.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by enjo13

Cost matters, but talent availability remains the single most important thing. Denver is missing out on a lot of the technical expansion jobs primarily because there isn't a great engineering school to be found here (Mines is fantastic, but doesn't turn out many graduates). Google is parking themselves in Boulder with the hope of recruiting directly out of CU Boulder.

I'm always sort of baffled that we as a state can't come up with the money to invest in engineering in the city. Both Metro and CU Denver are prime targets for really good engineering schools. Just freaking do it already.

Your comment was the first thing that popped into my mind after seeing this:

"Get ready for Arizona's tech boom"
Apr 8, 2015 by Hamid Shojaee, Entrepreneur - founder of Axosoft, Pure Chat and AZTechBeat.com via Phoenix Business Journal

3) Arizona will be Cooler than Boulder. If you’re not in tech, this last prediction might seem odd. Well, you see, it turns out that Boulder, Colorado, has a thriving tech community. Right now, as much as I hate to admit it, they are still a little cooler than us. But the snowball (pardon the pun) is rolling much faster in Arizona. There is a lot more snow, in the form of talent, universities and companies that will give far more fuel to Arizona’s tech ecosystem.

In the past 5 years, things have dramatically changed. We now have multi-billion-dollar publicly traded software companies in Arizona. While companies like GoDaddy, LifeLock and Infusionsoft help build some great foundation snow, I am even more excited for the dozens of fast growing tech startups.

Note: First bold is his, second is mine.

Plus I thought you might enjoy the bravado er perspective. I would have no particular opinion on the tech angle other than sensing the energy and effort to get things rolling around here.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Denverite

Here's an article from last week that I disagreed with. Although this Brad Evans character and I probably agree on a lot with respect to "Denver Fugly" architecture, I like the buildings that this article has photos of, even if they are a bit angular.

What I worry about, and what gets me so worked up is what if you guys DO agree that more design review needs to happen and you get that done. And then your aesthetic filter has to be adopted, and his, and some other guys', and some other gals', and some other leaders'. You like the ones he hates so much he has to use implied profanity to describe them. How many buildings get through his AND your filter of taste, and several other random people? Any at all?

And on a more social commentary level.. after living in LODO a combined 10ish years. I have serious doubts about the crowd there needing more than what they are getting (though I can empathize with anyone who has problems with what people are being charged for what they are getting). These buildings you are probably offended by are not heirloom buildings. They are being built to be destroyed and replaced and the frat boy crowds I constantly saw is happily obliging them I'm sure (and this isn't meant to be disparaging - I loved that life when I was in my 20s and 30s too).

You may also want to ask yourself if you REALLY want all these "ugly" buildings to be built with heirloom quality materials. When the time comes (I dunno.. 2040's-50's?) and some of them get replaced with more dense buildings, they will not be eating up much demo budget compared to sturdy concrete or steel buildings I imagine.

[DownhomeDenver]

RDS I got a question for you. You just posted a new project at the 3100 Block of Brighton Blvd. The 3100 block would be the Do it Urself Plumbing lot. Are you talking about 3063 Bright Blvd which is the parking lot between Industry and the gas station?

[DownhomeDenver]

Hey Denverite, here's your chance to leave a legacy. Kittys on S Broadway is for sale!!

http://www.businessden.com/2015/04/09/for-sale-broadway-theater-with-x-rated-past/

[seventwenty]

The Post focuses on the District 9 race, at least in terms of what's in the district.

Originally Posted by Denver Post

The hustle, bustle and power of downtown Denver contrasts sharply with the poverty, pollution and stagnation of the city's Elyria-Swansea neighborhood.

Just a few miles apart, the areas — newly together in the City Council's District 9 after redistricting — remain oceans apart in quality-of-life dynamics.

The distinctly different neighborhoods, at some point, may pose a conundrum for the new District 9 council member. The district will cover nearly all of downtown after years of that area being split more evenly between districts 8 and 9.

"It is obviously a very diverse district and new district," said Eric Sondermann, a Denver-based political analyst. "It is indicative, largely, of what Denver is about these days."

The contenders for the seat are Albus Brooks, the current District 8 councilman; Michael "Borch" Borcherding, a business executive and entrepreneur; and Ean Tafoya, a former City Council legislative assistant and community organizer.

This article is part of a larger series focusing on the upcoming city election.

[DownhomeDenver]

Here's some information about the site at 17th and Lafayette that once was a two story medical building:

http://www.businessden.com/2015/02/10/blank-slate-city-park/

[Denverite]

Originally Posted by DownhomeDenver

Hey Denverite, here's your chance to leave a legacy. Kittys on S Broadway is for sale!!

http://www.businessden.com/2015/04/09/for-sale-broadway-theater-with-x-rated-past/

Oh, I've already left my legacy at Kitty's South. If you haven't, then you ain't a real Denverite.

In all seriousness, Kitty's South is such an eyesore and it's funny you mention it because I have long hoped for its sale and repurposing. It was only a matter of time but it sure did take awhile for this. To me, this could be the last of the biggest asset to that stretch of S. Broadway (N. of Alameda / S. of 6th). Maybe my guage on real estate on S. Bway is off, but $2.7 Mill for that structure and location seems like a pretty good deal. I hope this turns out for the positive.

[Denverite]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

What I worry about, and what gets me so worked up is what if you guys DO agree that more design review needs to happen and you get that done. And then your aesthetic filter has to be adopted, and his, and some other guys', and some other gals', and some other leaders'. You like the ones he hates so much he has to use implied profanity to describe them. How many buildings get through his AND your filter of taste, and several other random people? Any at all?

I appreciate the respectful response. Thank you.

I would worry about that too. For the record, I am not saying that it would be good if there was some extremist design review board demanding their own personal vision on buildings that result in a slew of product that all look like what this review board likes and wants. Ideally, this would be a required step in the process with input from a group of architctural professionals who are open minded and diverse, and who can, at a minimum, suggest and advise reasonable recommendations of the external appearance with respect to the project location, budget, and purpose.

Anyway, I guess I just won't bring it up again. It's clear it upsets you guys. That wasn't my intent. Just put it to rest if it's really that upsetting.

D.

[bcp]

what you describe already exists....check out your planning and development committee at your local RNO (registered neighborhood organization).

required step? no, and on what authority would this happen?

suggestions? yes...and this happens regularly - it's smart to be transparent with your RNO and work with them. You don't have to agree, but they have good input at times.

[bcp]

$2.7MM for 20k sf of land on broadway...might be a fun project:

http://www.loopnet.com/xnet/mainsite/lis...inkCode=10850&SourceCode=1lww2t006a00001

Zoning is U-MS-3....surprised it's not an MX-5.

[Denverite]

Originally Posted by bcp

what you describe already exists....check out your planning and development committee at your local RNO (registered neighborhood organization).

Indeed, I am well aware that this already exists to varying degrees in most, if not all, municipalities. I have been through the review process before. Not sure they're doing a good job at times. It's been my experience that they tend to be either extremely militant about design changes or extremely lax. Little in-between.

[RyanD]

Went to Kansas City, came back and BAM! Called it... She's gonna be yellow!




http://oxblue.com/open/skyhouseapartments

[denconyny]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Well, we're filling up. An April 9th ground-breaking has been announced for Union Tower West:

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/r...wer-west-to-break-ground-near-union.html

Does anyone know if the groundbreaking happened yet today?

[Nobadeer10]

No activity yet today. Although there is a large "Event" tent set up...

[TakeFive]

RyanD... My kind of photo!!

denconyny... waiting to hear myself.


ALEC has an interesting map that rates all states from 1-50 based on economic outlook. The article is entitled: Rich States, Poor States, 2015 Edition

[comoneymaker]

can we get a pic update on 1401 Lawrence?