New Downtown Calgary Arena

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by johnnybegaudreau

did this over on calgarypuck as well. But here's a little sample of something that could be done.

I'm think elevated street down what used to be 16th avenue with the boulevard streets set at level grade and bar/restaraunts above sort of like 7th avenue downtown with the train platforms. A nice stair case on either side that leads down into the stadium-filedhouse and arena. The retail/restaraunts bars can have sidewalk front dsiplays and tables outdoors for nice weather with river views etc.

West Village with bowtrail realignment and urbanized boulevards.
Purple = retail/restaraunt/office mixed used
Orange = arena
Red = football stadium field house combo
Pink = hotel/casino
Dark grey = parkade/parking
light grey area = future residential
light blue = pumphouse theater

Facing South across bow river.


My guess is the Flames will make one complex for the CFL stadium which will have roughly 20,000 seats for regular season cfl games.

Stadium / field house combo will no way fit in the small box you created for it. Additionally, I have it on good source that the flames would like the elements better integrated together (as compared to how you have it) so that this could function as a pseudo convention centre also, and thus it cannot be broken into two like you have it with a different building in between.

Additionally, your comment about the stadium shrinking to 20,000 seats is way off base. I have a good source who told me the major comment King had about his visit to see the new Winnipeg stadium was that it was small (it is 33,500).

[EDIT]
Just read Nick's comments above. Looks like we're aligned - sorry for repeating his sentiments (independently developed).

[EDIT #2]
I also find that lining the riverfront with arena, stadium and field-house would be a massive lost opportunity. I'd lobby hard against this site plan, even if the logistics were worked out.

[Ramsayfarian]

Wouldn't the excavation needed go along way to reclamation? At least be a huge start. I realize that due to the contamination it would be a pricey and complicated excavation.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

Wouldn't the excavation needed go along way to reclamation? At least be a huge start. I realize that due to the contamination it would be a pricey and complicated excavation.

You'd think, but I suspect the construction mafia will lobby the regulatory agencies to break these things into two, thus increasing their profits.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

Wouldn't the excavation needed go along way to reclamation? At least be a huge start. I realize that due to the contamination it would be a pricey and complicated excavation.

The barrier from the earlier remediation should go a long way to addressing that. The issues outstanding would be preventing contaminated runoff once the basin is breached and storing and removing the contaminated soil and clay and whatever else. A berm in the river might be required if the existing barrier walls are obstructive.

[Denscafon]

While I am very excited by the plans the flames are doing by building all 3 buildings next to each other, I agree with surburbia that location wise, giving the arena/stadium/field house riverfront property is a waste. A more appropriate location to me would be railtown as there is ample space and the dreaded train tracks that are there will not be a bother for these types of buildings. I did a really crappy render with Rogers arena and BC place where railtown is to show how much space there is left if they want to build restaurants/casinos/hotels in the surrounding area.


I guess 1 of the main issues is that its quite a walk from either city hall station and victoria park stampede station (especially in the winter). 1 solution could be to build a underground station where the train already goes underground and create a walking tunnel that would lead to railtown. It would be very expensive but compared to remediation and rerouting all of bowtrail/crowchild for westvillage, u never know.

One thing I do worry is that if the flames don't build in west village, will that area ever be fixed/developed in the foreseeable future? I know there are plans to make it like East village but the issues of traffic/remediation will be a much bigger hurtle so having a partner in the flames might be the quickest/only solution for having that area developed.

[Bigtime]

Railtown was perfect for transit because the SELRT line would go right by it. You could have even potentially roughed in a station with the development.

[Luk_o]

Originally Posted by Denscafon

While I am very excited by the plans the flames are doing by building all 3 buildings next to each other, I agree with surburbia that location wise, giving the arena/stadium/field house riverfront property is a waste. A more appropriate location to me would be railtown as there is ample space and the dreaded train tracks that are there will not be a bother for these types of buildings. I did a really crappy render with Rogers arena and BC place where railtown is to show how much space there is left if they want to build restaurants/casinos/hotels in the surrounding area.


I guess 1 of the main issues is that its quite a walk from either city hall station and victoria park stampede station (especially in the winter). 1 solution could be to build a underground station where the train already goes underground and create a walking tunnel that would lead to railtown. It would be very expensive but compared to remediation and rerouting all of bowtrail/crowchild for westvillage, u never know.

One thing I do worry is that if the flames don't build in west village, will that area ever be fixed/developed in the foreseeable future? I know there are plans to make it like East village but the issues of traffic/remediation will be a much bigger hurtle so having a partner in the flames might be the quickest/only solution for having that area developed.

Ya, but you're giving the stadium riverfront property with your Railtown proposal too!

[MalcolmTucker]

The thing with using Rogers and BC Place - doesn't Rogers have one of the smallest footprint of modern NHL buildings, while BC Place was a monster even before the footprint expanded a bit with the addition of the new foot?

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Luk_o

Ya, but you're giving the stadium riverfront property with your Railtown proposal too!

The river that is more prone to flooding too!

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The river that is more prone to flooding too!

Flooding in that area of any real significance - how many times in the past 35 years that I've been here?

Once in 2013.

Previous major flood events were in 1875, 1902 and 1932.

So build the buildings on an artificial plateau and be done with it - there's always lots of fill available in Calgary to do such.

[Denscafon]

Originally Posted by Luk_o

Ya, but you're giving the stadium riverfront property with your Railtown proposal too!

Touche :p But even with the riverfront, the land value of railtown is probably lower still due to the train tracks being right there so to me its still a more appropriate location for the stadiums than west village.

ya i saw the original plans for the Green line (Central north to SE) and that it would stop around that area but it seems like something that won't happen in 10-20 years due to budget restraints and the fact that apparently the newish SW line isn't even paying for itself. A mini expansion and a walking tunnel to me seems relatively feasible without disrupting too much of whats already there. It also wouldn't disrupt the train line while construction is happening.

Even if Rogers centre is a tiny footprint, there's still a ton of land to put a bigger stadium there instead. The main hurdle is if a stadium the size of BC place could fit and it does so space is not an issue for this location.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by speedog

Flooding in that area of any real significance - how many times in the past 35 years that I've been here?

Once in 2013.

Previous major flood events were in 1875, 1902 and 1932.

So build the buildings on an artificial plateau and be done with it - there's always lots of fill available in Calgary to do such.

Got pretty close in 2005 too. Stadiums are usually sunken in the ground a bit, and there is generally equipment under the floor too. Just saying this should be a consideration in choosing this particular location...

[speedog]

Of note, west village area currently contained within north and south Bow Trail lanes and 14th Street on the east side is about 22.6 acres (9.1 hectares). Railtown bounded by rails on north side, 12th Ave on south side, Olympic Way on west side and 7th Street on east side is 38.6 acres (15.6 hectares).

Railtown is a considerably larger site but does have more of a flood risk. Railtown probably doesn't have any ecological mess to clean up and is situated a bit better with respect to most amenities.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by speedog

Of note, west village area currently contained within north and south Bow Trail lanes and 14th Street on the east side is about 22.6 acres (9.1 hectares). Railtown bounded by rails on north side, 12th Ave on south side, Olympic Way on west side and 7th Street on east side is 38.6 acres (15.6 hectares).

Railtown is a considerably larger site but does have more of a flood risk. Railtown probably doesn't have any ecological mess to clean up and is situated a bit better with respect to most amenities.

There is probably something to clean up, that was a railyard for a long time, and the city bus barns are there as well. Should be pretty minimal compared to the creosote issue in WV though.

[VIce]

Originally Posted by red_179

Am I the one that finds it hilarious that only a few weeks ago, most everyone is dead set against public money going to this thing and now people are talking about increasing the free fare zone, which would reduce Calgary Transit revenue, and building a new track just for the convenience of those going to the games? We don't even have money for the NC/SE line! Sunalta station as is will do just fine.

To be fair, Victoria Park is the only three-track station in the city specifically to give an extra train after Flames games. They headed into downtown and short-turned it to head North East. It fell out of use as train frequencies improved though.

[Luk_o]

There will be too many apple fights going down after heated rivalry matches in that fancy orchard next door. As fun as that sounds, Brad Lamb's vision will be tarnished & ridiculed. Think of Brad Lamb.

In all serisousness though, West Village all the way for this development! Done right, this is the best location by a long shot IMO.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by Denscafon

It would be very expensive but compared to remediation and rerouting all of bowtrail/crowchild for westvillage, u never know.

Yeah, except that both the remediation and the Bow Trail/Crowchild rerouting is something that this city needs to do for a lot more reasons than just an arena.

The Bow Trail/Crowchild interchange is a hugely important connection between two major arteries and it is a freaking mess and downright dangerous coming from certain directions when there is large amounts of traffic. Crowchild is the single most important road for travel to and from the NW to the SW of the city and vice versa until the ring road gets built and even with the ring road Crowchild is still going to be the major road that takes people living in the NW home after working downtown. Edgemont, Hawkwood, Arbor Lake, Citadel, Ranchlands, Brentwood, Silver Springs, Dalhousie, Tuscany, Royal Oak, Rocky Ridge, Varsity, these are massive communities with huge traffic requirements and Crowchild is "the" major connector for them. That bridge and the choke point at University Drive need to be dealt with. The whole road needs to be changed to no lights, free flowing as they already did for everything north of 24th ave.

The creosote issue is not going away without an arena being built there. It is just being ignored. Recent studies have shown that the stuff is leaching across the river still, and that means a large amount is also going into the river as well through groundwater seepage. That area needs to be cleaned up regardless of the arena construction.

What you are talking about is money that actually does not need to be spent, and it is solely for the purpose of serving the arena. The other two issued you mentioned need to be dealt with and are going to cost money even if the arena were not built there because they will "still" need to be actually dealt with and are problems that have nothing to do with the arena. That they would be dealt with in concert with the building of a new arena is killing two birds with one stone and is a very good thing.

[Ice Cream Man]

There won't be any problem getting an arena, stadium and fieldhouse onto the West Village property, along with other developments.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man

There won't be any problem getting an arena, stadium and fieldhouse onto the West Village property, along with other developments.

I don't think there's any argument that this complex won't fit on the west village property - problem is will the Flames be compromising things on that property as opposed to the larger property in railtown plus there's way more infrastructure/amenities closer to railtown than the west village.

My gut feeling is still west village.

[Denscafon]

Tropics, I'm not arguing that Bow trail/Crowchild intersection does not need to be completely redone. Nor the fact that the whole remediation cleanup needs to be done at some point in time due to it seaping across the other side of the river (and consequently into the river). These 2 issues will need to be addressed at some point in time. My argument is judging which area is more appropriate for these arenas (this is a thread about it, not a city infrastructure one).

From the Flames owners and city's perspective, the easier/cheaper route is usually the route that gets approved. Railtown is a larger space and has less hurdles to deal with. I griped in my original post that my fear is exactly what you said, that remediation and the bow/trail intersection may never be addressed unless the flames push for it since the arena is going to be there.If it takes a new arena to address those 2 massive issues, then great. But it's kind of sad as west village has much more commericial/residential potential than railtown does.

My main concern is that the city will say they have no money to actually pay for fixing these issues and Flames ownership will not help out and nothing at all gets done (very real possibility) and everyone is stuck in a stand still for another 5 years or so