Halifax Stadium Discussion

[isaidso]

The debate can go around in circles for eternity, but one fact remains. Stadia, libraries, universities, etc. are all significant pieces of infrastructure that our society has deemed important. There will always be some who don't see the benefit and/or won't use them, but at the very least they contribute to the greater culture.

We assign greater importance to educational pursuits while downplaying sport, recreation, and entertainment. At the end of the day, they're all important to the mental, emotional, and physical health of people.

[Nouvellecosse]

I'm not sure how I feel about the location issue honestly. On one hand, a major destination that has a peripheral setting is likely to do more to increase auto dependence and make it difficult for those without vehicles to access in a reasonable manner, but on the other hand, are these type of developments really that appealing in a dense urban setting?

Perhaps if it was on the periphery there could be a special express shuttle bus that connects it to major transit hubs like Mumford, Scotia Square and Bridge Terminal when events are happening.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Are you kidding me or do you just go around making moronic statements? Spend a little time on Google and see just how far from downtown San Francisco is from Santa Clara, Arlington from downtown Dallas, Landover is from downtown Washington, DC, East Rutherford is from downtown NYC and so on. By the way, Orchard Park is not 10 minutes from downtown Buffalo even if you are speeding at 3 am.

It is false to believe that a modern football stadium, that is used 10 times a year, is only best served by locating it downtown. Only four NFL stadiums were place on virgin downtown land and two of those (Houston and Detroit) are multipurpose domed stadiums that are a lot more than just football stadiums. Only Charlotte and Nashville built downtown stadiums where no stadium previously existed. In the past, downtown stadiums and their dead seas of parking lots have been part of massive urban redevelopments or rebuilds of stadiums that were built downtown decades before the advancement of personal transportation. In the CFL, Regina, Hamilton and Ottawa built on existing sites and Winnipeg built outside the downtown core. Halifax has no existing site and I know of no large blighted industrial site downtown where the land would be best served by a football stadium. If Halifax ever builds a stadium, it is most likely going to be outside of downtown and probably at Shannon Park or Dartmouth Crossing.

Using American cities and NFL football stadiums is a bad way to reason about Canadian stadium locations. First of all, we don't have anywhere near the same population base as any of the cities you've mentioned. They can afford to put it out in the boonies, with a larger population to draw from. It also means ticket prices are sky high compared to the CFL, based on demand, again, making location less important to covering annual costs.

Second, many of the cities you mentioned have much better public mass transit options, to bring people to different locations. If we had mass transit to connect a stadium outside the core, then that would be more easily justified. We don't have mass transit and our existing transit to outlying areas is pitiful. You locate where you maximize access, where many can walk to the game, take ferries, buses, or cars. The peninsula would be one location. Shannon Park too, which is the more likely location given land limits in the core.

The lesson from Ottawa is that with a smaller population and no mass transit, then suburban arenas become an issue. Let's avoid it.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

There is no significant residential population who would benefit from a stadium in Dartmouth Crossing. Why? Because it's out in the middle of the woods. No one lives beside Dartmouth Crossing. No one can walk there. No one can take a ferry there. Nor take more than a single bus or two connected to there. The largest residential population with the easiest access would be Cole Harbour and surrounding suburbs, but they are not really close either, with a significant commute via several roads, highways, of varying capacity. And for people coming from the rest of Atlantic Canada-- because that would be needed for a team to survive-- Dartmouth Crossing would be a disaster as paid accommodation is almost non-existent beyond a single hotel.
You locate a significant public asset in a place where you can maximize access for the entire population while reducing stress and costs to expend on building or maintaining existing infrastructure. Dartmouth Crossing is terribly connected in our public transit system and when traffic is heavy, is also horribly connected by automobile. It's not located near any significant residential population and its located even further from significant populations located on the western side of HRM -- Bedford, Clayton Park, etc.

Locating where there is significant transit connections, near a high density population-- many of whom can access by transit or by simply walking-- with a significant number of hotels and similar forms of paid accommodation for fans coming from out of time-- that would, obviously, be something downtown, or nearby.

So yes, I think Shannon Park is an arguable case, and you make a good point about land use downtown. I actually agree with this-- use of land (like in Cogswell) would likely be better used for high density residential development. But then, I would want guarantees that such developments would happen, and I'm never convinced of that in HRM where anything over 3 storeys is a major batter. But if so, perhaps Shannon Park is the but a lot of infrastructure is missing there, including bars, restaurants, hotels, etc, to benefit from the "spillover" economics of games.

Dartmouth Crossing is not even arguable. Putting a stadium-- nay, anything public-- in Dartmouth Crossing would be be an idiotic, hair brained idea, which means it's probably at the very top of the list of possible choices for HRM staffers working on this file.

And yet somehow Dartmouth Crossing is packed all the time with thousands and thousands of shoppers who manage everyday to venture out into the remote wilderness to go to COSTCO and Wal-Mart. It would not be any more of an inconvenience for fans to drive an additional 15 minutes to Dartmouth Crossing once every two weeks or so to see the Schooners play as oppose to Shannon Park. Both would work just fine. As for hotels, sure there is one at DC, but there are many other hotels on the Dartmouth side of the harbour or even in downtown Halifax since DC is not that far from either. BTW, DC already has all of the spillover businesses of restaurants and bars plus lots of available parking. As for mass transit, I am sure on game day they would run many available busses to either stadium location, just as they do in Winnipeg.

[Nouvellecosse]

A stadium may not need to be on the peninsula, but there must be somewhere within the existing urban footprint to place such development. Shannon Park may be one option, but I wonder about the area around the Lacewood Library and Canada Games Centre. Close to a transit terminal and a major highway, and reasonable accessibility to people in Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford Sackville and highway access for out-of-towners alike.

As for Dartmouth Crossing, it should be bulldozed and returned back to nature. I would never support anything new being built there regardless of how much is already there or how popular it is. The whole thing is a farce.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

A stadium may not need to be on the peninsula, but there must be somewhere within the existing urban footprint to place such development. Shannon Park may be one option, but I wonder about the area around the Lacewood Library and Canada Games Centre. Close to a transit terminal and a major highway, and reasonable accessibility to people in Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford Sackville and highway access for out-of-towners alike.

As for Dartmouth Crossing, it should be bulldozed and returned back to nature. I would never support anything new being built there regardless of how much is already there or how popular it is. The whole thing is a farce.

Dartmouth Crossing is a rock quarry reclamation, not greenfield development. If you are concerned about greenfield development - you should be more concerned with HRM expanding Bayer's Lake with sale to Banc Group, Ragged Lake expansion plans, ongoing Burnside expansion, sale of Jack Lake Lands to Sobeys, whatever plans they have for 107 extension and deals with Municipal Group, and whatever they are negotiating for development in and around Blue Mountain Birch Cove proposed regional park.

[Nouvellecosse]

The issues with Dartmouth Crossing and other such developments are much more related to how it wastes resources such as fuel (due to encouraging wasteful travel patterns) and infrastructure development/maintenance csts due to the unnecessary expansion of roads and utilities. When it comes to such wasteful planning practices, the environmental issues due to the actual development of the lands are generally marginal even in 100% virgin greenfields except in the case of a few environmentally delicate exceptions.

Of course it given enough scale it certainly adds up.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Welkin

And yet somehow Dartmouth Crossing is packed all the time with thousands and thousands of shoppers who manage everyday to venture out into the remote wilderness to go to COSTCO and Wal-Mart. It would not be any more of an inconvenience for fans to drive an additional 15 minutes to Dartmouth Crossing once every two weeks or so to see the Schooners play as oppose to Shannon Park. Both would work just fine. As for hotels, sure there is one at DC, but there are many other hotels on the Dartmouth side of the harbour or even in downtown Halifax since DC is not that far from either. BTW, DC already has all of the spillover businesses of restaurants and bars plus lots of available parking. As for mass transit, I am sure on game day they would run many available busses to either stadium location, just as they do in Winnipeg.

Surely you're not comparing weekend shopping to a CFL game? Traffic in the core for a Mooseheads game is bad, and there are a multitude of means by which to get there as the stadium is downtown-- multiple ferries, multiple buses, taxes, cars, walking, and yes, even biking. In an isolated location like DC, which has a few feeder routes, the congestion would be brutal much like Ottawa, which has massive 8 lane freeways running to Kanata, but none of the other accessible means. One bus.

Plus, you describe DC traffic like its a walk in the park. Traffic congestion at rush hour in DC (which is still not comparable to a CFL game traffic, as its attracting people from HRM and all over), can actually be quite bad. And that's just shoppers and workers heading home.

[cjones2451]

I wonder if someone will win the Lotto Max $50M tonight and donate it towards a stadium.

Okay, not likely, but what will it take to get this done? Didn't the City pledge $20M?
Is the province ever going to pony up?
Feds? Only if it is for a World Cup / Commonwealth games...

Private Investors?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by cjones2451

I wonder if someone will win the Lotto Max $50M tonight and donate it towards a stadium.

Heh, funny, I was just thinking about this recently (even though I never buy tickets). I wouldn't donate funds for a stadium. I was thinking I might head to the Carolinas or Florida and buy a nice place to get away from this gawdawful weather.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Heh, funny, I was just thinking about this recently (even though I never buy tickets). I wouldn't donate funds for a stadium. I was thinking I might head to the Carolinas or Florida and buy a nice place to get away from this gawdawful weather.

And here I thought you'd donate a few bucks to the library to install escalators.

Also there was the aforementioned D8 to take care of the NFB bldg...

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

And here I thought you'd donate a few bucks to the library to install escalators.

Not one thin dime to that bunch.

Also there was the aforementioned D8 to take care of the NFB bldg...

Thanks for reminding me! Now THAT is a worthy cause!

[Keith P.]

The website that shall not be named is reporting that there is a private interest in exploring a stadium for Halifax. Don Gardiner of Gardiner Group is working with Aubrey Palmeter of Eastpoint Engineering along with other unnamed members who are stated to have previous stadium experience. Financing is reported to be coming from Dubai interests. Apparently they are looking at a deal where govt would provide a site along with adjacent land to let them develop other projects.

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The website that shall not be named is reporting that there is a private interest in exploring a stadium for Halifax. Don Gardiner of Gardiner Group is working with Aubrey Palmeter of Eastpoint Engineering along with other unnamed members who are stated to have previous stadium experience. Financing is reported to be coming from Dubai interests. Apparently they are looking at a deal where govt would provide a site along with adjacent land to let them develop other projects.

Any update on this?

[c-way-dude]

http://tsn.ca/canada-already-thinking-of-2026-men-s-wc-1.240179
I wonder if Canada's bid will include more than the minimum 8 required stadiums mentioned in the article, and if Halifax could use a successful bid to secure federal and provincial money towards a stadium?

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

http://tsn.ca/canada-already-thinking-of-2026-men-s-wc-1.240179
I wonder if Canada's bid will include more than the minimum 8 required stadiums mentioned in the article, and if Halifax could use a successful bid to secure federal and provincial money towards a stadium?

FIFA + Sepp Blatter = massive corruption

Do you have a spare $400 - 600 million ?

Canada is best advised to stay away from any bid for WC, only FIFA makes money and the hosts get stuck with the bills.

[hokus83]

Originally Posted by Colin May

FIFA + Sepp Blatter = massive corruption

Do you have a spare $400 - 600 million ?

Canada is best advised to stay away from any bid for WC, only FIFA makes money and the hosts get stuck with the bills.

Agreed. You would have to be an idiot to want Canada to host a FIFA world cup

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by hokus83

Agreed. You would have to be an idiot to want Canada to host a FIFA world cup

Poor logic... it depends alot on who's organizing it, similar to the olympics.

Look at Vancouver 2010 vs Montreal 1976.

Anyway, what we should be more outraged by is the face that MONCTON is a host city for the women's world cup.

When will Halifax get it together and at least build a starter stadium? There should be equivalent amount of money available as there was for a library to get something up and running (no pun intended). Aside from concerns about a local franchise, it would serve local teams well (both soccer and football).

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Poor logic... it depends alot on who's organizing it, similar to the olympics.

Look at Vancouver 2010 vs Montreal 1976.

Anyway, what we should be more outraged by is the face that MONCTON is a host city for the women's world cup.

When will Halifax get it together and at least build a starter stadium? There should be equivalent amount of money available as there was for a library to get something up and running (no pun intended). Aside from concerns about a local franchise, it would serve local teams well (both soccer and football).

Which games will you be watching in Moncton ?
Mongolia v Fiji should be a sell out.
(Couldn't be worse than the rubbish I just watched on Sky Super Sunday)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Which games will you be watching in Moncton ?
Mongolia v Fiji should be a sell out.
(Couldn't be worse than the rubbish I just watched on Sky Super Sunday)

Sorry, no Fiji vs Mongolia in Moncton.

France vs England, Colombia vs Mexico - June 9th
France vs Colombia, England vs Mexico - June 13th
Ivory Coast vs Norway - June 15th
Costa Rica vs Brazil - June 17th
Round of 16 Final - June 19th

So, England, France, Mexico and Brazil but no Mongolia - sorry.

BTW - I agree that it is an outrage that Moncton has the temerity to consider itself capable of hosting a FIFA tournament, just like it was an outrage that we were able to host the Men's World Curling Championship (twice), and the World Junior Track & Field Championships.

How dare we.........