Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Sheba]

Moving back on topic, I hope they open the VCC to Canada Line section early, while they're still working on the Canada Line to Arbutus section. Filling in that gap will make a lot of difference.

What's your preference for the 99 B-Line after that - only run it from Canada Line, or have say half of them run from there and half from Commercial-Broadway station.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Moving back on topic, I hope they open the VCC to Canada Line section early, while they're still working on the Canada Line to Arbutus section. Filling in that gap will make a lot of difference.

What's your preference for the 99 B-Line after that - only run it from Canada Line, or have say half of them run from there and half from Commercial-Broadway station.

Not another Burquitlam! I think they'll open it all at once. While it would make a big difference, it would likely complicate matters too much. We'll just have to be patient.

I think they should only run the 99 from the westernmost station on the line so it can free up buses to be used elsewhere. It's ridership would drop like a rock along the part of its route that would now be served by SkyTrain, so it just wouldn't be needed.

[Sheba]

Au contraire...

Originally Posted by andasen

Opening the line to Broadway/Cambie is a completely kettle of fish than opening the Burquitlam Station early.

Opening the Burquitlam Station early means disruptively transforming the current operations for both Expo and Millennium line for the benefit of a few local users.

Opening the GNW, Main and BDW-CB stations early would not fundamentally alter operations just require additional trains to service the additional tracks. It would benefit a greater number of local users (higher density), improve access to destinations and significantly reduce the travel time for the entire metro region.

When they built the first part of the Expo Line extension into Surrey, the Columbia station opened first in Feb '89 and Scott Road station opened Mar '90. That didn't cause the sky to fall either.

I do agree about running the 99 from the westernmost station, even if that means shifting it during construction. So in my dream scenario, they open the section to Canada Line while the rest is under construction and shift the beginning of the 99 to there. Then when they open the rest of the line to Arbutus, they move the 99 to start there instead.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Au contraire...


When they built the first part of the Expo Line extension into Surrey, the Columbia station opened first in Feb '89 and Scott Road station opened Mar '90. That didn't cause the sky to fall either.

I do agree about running the 99 from the westernmost station, even if that means shifting it during construction. So in my dream scenario, they open the section to Canada Line while the rest is under construction and shift the beginning of the 99 to there. Then when they open the rest of the line to Arbutus, they move the 99 to start there instead.

I just don't know enough about Burquitlam to know if it is comparable but the Columbia extension would not have affected any bus lines. If bus lines that feed Burquitlam will be optimized after opening it gets messy if you opening early.

[Sheba]

Burquitlam branches off from Millennium Line while Columbia is an extension of the Expo Line. Adding these stations to 'the Broadway Line' (or whatever they decide to call it) will be an extension of the Millennium Line. So opening them all at once or one at a time won't make a difference to Skytrain operation, and for buses all I said was about shortening the 99.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by nname

Trip from New West to Richmond during peak hours:

Expo -> 410: 1hr 5min
Expo -> 430: 1hr 10min
Expo -> 049 -> Canada: 1hr 11min
Expo -> 041/043 -> Canada: 1hr 4min
Expo -> 033 -> Canada: 1hr 4min
Expo -> 025 -> Canada: 1hr 4min
Expo -> 099 -> Canada: 1hr 4min
Expo -> Canada: 1hr 6min

You can pretty much get there with only 7min difference no matter which route you take (unless, of course, you miss your connection)

And given SkyTrain is far more predictable than buses which are often late or don't stick to schedule, Expo -> Canada would always be my preferred choice. People like predictability and that's why buses are not favorable when it comes to transit. They are important, but just too many things interfere with their schedule.

Traffic, bus drivers calling in sick, a day where every single stop has people to pick up and drop off, several wheel chairs needing to onload or offload, etc. etc. Too many things and when you add in connectors... ugh *face palm*

Even our B-lines are not predictable because we don't actually have any true B-lines in metro-Vancouver.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Moving back on topic, I hope they open the VCC to Canada Line section early, while they're still working on the Canada Line to Arbutus section. Filling in that gap will make a lot of difference.

What's your preference for the 99 B-Line after that - only run it from Canada Line, or have say half of them run from there and half from Commercial-Broadway station.

They won't. They will open any new line all at the same time. Phased opening are a nightmare especially on such a highly used corridor.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Moving back on topic, I hope they open the VCC to Canada Line section early, while they're still working on the Canada Line to Arbutus section. Filling in that gap will make a lot of difference.

What's your preference for the 99 B-Line after that - only run it from Canada Line, or have say half of them run from there and half from Commercial-Broadway station.

There's no way to open the eastern parts of the Broadway subway to the public while tunnel construction is still happening further west. The nature of TBM construction means that all the parts to build the tunnels have to come in via the eastern portal at Great Northern Way and through the completed tunnel, and all the rubble & dirt has to be removed through the completed tunnel and out the same portal. Look at the TBM tunnel for Evergreen as an example.

However, once the TBM tunnels are completed, all the stations could be under construction simultaneously, and with station completions all happening at nearly the same time, what is the use of opening each station on different days?

The Canada line looked finished (from the street) for months before it was opened, but behind the scenes there was still a beehive of activity to get the stations and line ready for opening day. Don't be surprised in 2016 if there are questions about why the Evergreen line is 'finished' and has trains are running on it, but it won't open until the Fall.

[AMTDGT]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

.....

However, once the TBM tunnels are completed, all the stations could be under construction simultaneously, ....

.

Minor point of clarification. Both the bored tunnel stations on the CL were under construction while the TBM was in operation. They left the liners in place or replaced them with a plywood box on the side where the TBM was running, to protect the work crews from getting run over by a spoil train. We actually watched the TBM break through the south eastern wall of the Yaletown station.

On another note, is it technically possible to reuse the Evergreen TBM in Vancouver for the Broadway extension. I understand that the TMB used must be matched to the soil conditions. Are the conditions similar??

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

Minor point of clarification. Both the bored tunnel stations on the CL were under construction while the TBM was in operation. They left the liners in place or replaced them with a plywood box on the side where the TBM was running, to protect the work crews from getting run over by a spoil train. We actually watched the TBM break through the south eastern wall of the Yaletown station.

On another note, is it technically possible to reuse the Evergreen TBM in Vancouver for the Broadway extension. I understand that the TMB used must be matched to the soil conditions. Are the conditions similar??

It may be possible to reuse the TBM after Evergreen, but who would want to lose money storing it for up to 10 years before Broadway gets the green light.

Owner of the TBM probably has a few jobs elsewhere on the continent already waiting for this TBM to complete the evergreen tunnel.

Same with the gantry crane use to build the Evergreen elevated guideways; Owner probably has a few more projects somewhere else in North America to get done in the next few years.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

It may be possible to reuse the TBM after Evergreen, but who would want to lose money storing it for up to 10 years before Broadway gets the green light.

Owner of the TBM probably has a few jobs elsewhere on the continent already waiting for this TBM to complete the evergreen tunnel.

Same with the gantry crane use to build the Evergreen elevated guideways; Owner probably has a few more projects somewhere else in North America to get done in the next few years.

People here have been saying that we could use the Canada Line's TBM for the Evergreen Line, and it never happened. I doubt the TBM for the Evergreen Line will be used for Broadway. After all, that particular TBM was custom built specifically for the requirements of the Evergreen Line tunnel.

While the soil conditions could be similar, the topography won't be. I dunno if the Evergreen Line TBM, aka "Alice" will be used elsewhere once its finished its job. I have a feeling it will be scrapped. It would be all beaten up by then given the sheer number of "maintenance" it went through.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

People here have been saying that we could use the Canada Line's TBM for the Evergreen Line, and it never happened.

Well to start with, they're different diameters. The Canada Line TBM bored two tunnels with one track in each, while the Evergreen line is boring one double-tracked tunnel.

[SOSS]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Well to start with, they're different diameters. The Canada Line TBM bored two tunnels with one track in each, while the Evergreen line is boring one double-tracked tunnel.

Why did they end up going with single vs twin for Evergreen? The single bore tunnel has nearly 3 1/2 times the material removal requirement then twin bore. Thoughts?

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by SOSS

Why did they end up going with single vs twin for Evergreen? The single bore tunnel has nearly 3 1/2 times the material removal requirement then twin bore. Thoughts?

That's a good question. I do think it has everything to do with topography given that there will be some major curves and uphill climbing, which I think would be easier with the single bore.

[KPELLY]

The reason is timeline. Unless you are using 2 TBMs going there and back is going to take nearly twice as long. And if you are using 2 TBMs, the cost would likely be higher than one large one, despite the large difference in material moved, since you need 2 crews etc.

[Ridgerunner]

Following the thread on re using the TBM ...

why bother.

Besides the TBM perhaps being suited for different soil conditions than would be found on the UBC line, there is the simple fact that a TBM is cheap.

The whole machine costs 10 million - or so I have heard. On a 12 kilometer build (Clark to UBC) you would get two of those machines - or maybe even three - and build the whole line at once... Clark to Oak street, Oak Street to MacDonald, MacDonald to UBC..... each a 4 k section.

And nothing prevents some parts being constructed from west to east .. for example, MacDonald is the extraction point for the spoils from the line that goes to UBC and the one that goes to Oak Street. Clark is the spoils extraction site for the line that goes to Oak street.

What's 30 million on a budget of 3.5 billion if it speeds up the construction by 2/3rds or even just half.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

The whole machine costs 10 million - or so I have heard. On a 12 kilometer build (Clark to UBC) you would get two of those machines - or maybe even three - and build the whole line at once... Clark to Oak street, Oak Street to MacDonald, MacDonald to UBC..... each a 4 k section.

...except that the launching and recovery pits and assembly / disassembly costs are not cheap and so many pits would cause a lot of disruption.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

...except that the launching and recovery pits and assembly / disassembly costs are not cheap and so many pits would cause a lot of disruption.

Unless your stations are your launch pits, in which case they're not all that expensive.

[Ridgerunner]

Are there any updates on the UBC line?

Does anyone know how the voting is coming on the new tax?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

Are there any updates on the UBC line?

Does anyone know how the voting is coming on the new tax?

They have 15.1% of the ballots in and the end date is May 29th. Don't expect to hear any results until June or July.