Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[Large Cat]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

Well, they wanted to avoid the situation in many US cities, where people would commonly drive to a train station, and then drive home from the station at the end of the day. I say this in Dallas, giant park and rides at the train stations in the suburbs. If you make it easy for people to do that, it makes it far less likely for them to take the bus, it actually disincentivizes it. That's why Translink tries to encourage everyone to take the bus to the Skytrain / WCE stations. I think this is completely reasonable for people that take one bus ride to the station. You need to set up the system so that enough people use those feeder / local buses, or else they will always be empty or only come by once an hour.

I get it when we are talking about people that don't want to wait 25 min for a bus or spend 45 min with a transfer even getting to the station. But everyone in New West for example should be taking the bus to the Skytrain stations, not driving. The buses need to be frequent enough to make that viable. I would be against massive expansion of Translink park and rides because it means less people on the buses and then that makes it more difficult to provide bus service for people that remain taking it.

To tie this in to the Evergreen line topic, I actually hope that most of the Coquitlam Central parking lots can be redeveloped, and for the park and ride functions to be further afield like Maple Ridge, Poco. Once the Evergreen line is up and running, most people in the tri-cities should be able to take a fast and frequent bus to the stations. People in the Port Moody, Coquitlam Centre areas shouldn't be driving to a park and ride.

Large 100% agree. I'm glad Translink takes the approach they do. Imagine how much more bottlenecked the bypass would be if there were a huge Park n Ride at Braid.

I too hope that Coquitlam Centre's surface parking will be redeveloped. And I hope something similar happens at Inlet Centre, which is the only station location that really confuses me.

[red-paladin]

Inlet Centre is where it is, because the skytrain had to follow the CPR right of way. The original plan was to have the rout turn north there and go to Newport Village and then down Guildford, then back south to Coquitlam Central, but even though Guildford was built extra wide to accommodate it, Nimbys that moved in AFTER the community plan was set up to have skytrain there kicked up a fuss (this was 15 years ago when skytrain was scary and brought crime), so the route was changed. Now of course there are people that live up there asking 'Why doesn't the skytrain come up here?'

[Metro-One]

I believe the long term plan for Coquitlam Centre is to build a parkage (taking up around 1/4 the current space of the surface lot) and develop the rest of the land as a TOD.

[Rico]

There is no absolute correct way to go with park and rides, but it is pretty clear from pretty much everywhere that they are a bad idea in urban areas. The problem becomes what is urban and what about something that is suburban now but expected to urbanize in the near term? I use the Scott road park and ride but don't actually think the Expo line needs any other park and rides. Canada line has the River Rock parking. I do think there does need to be a park and ride at one of the Coquitlam stations to 'feed' the system, but I don't think we need more than one. Some park and rides on some of the proposed new Blines in the outer areas seem like better use of funds than more park and rides along Skytrain. You want the park and ride to be before things are slowed by congestion, not after. If Braid had a park and ride people would have to get there and would contribute to the traffic mess. If a park and ride was in Pitt Meadows along good transit (Bline or at least frequent bus) those vehicles are off the road and not part of the problem, plus land costs would be less there too.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

But at the end of the day, taking a bus to from the far flung suburbs to the Skytrain doesn't really give people incentive to get into transit at all given the unreliable nature of the buses themselves. At least with park and rides, the cars will be left in one place and not clogging up the highways and major routes with SOVs going to work or school. It also increases transit use overall.

The plan to force people into buses to get to a train simply ain't going to work. And this is the type of social engineering decision making that makes people very wary of Translink, and why they cannot be trusted.

Its too bad the park and ride at LaFarge ain't coming, but at least there is still the one at Coquitlam Central and Port Moody. Imagine someone from Westwood Plateau...why should he spend 30 minutes on a C29 shuttle bus to get to the Evergreen Line when he can use a car and be at the Coquitlam Central Park and Ride for as little as 5 to ten minutes by car?

You're right, our transit system would look much better like this:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_Park_LRT_Station

Buses are still packed, so clearly our approach does work. It's not about increasing transit use, it's about making the right urban planning decision in a larger context. If we really wanted to, we could build big LRT lines just like Calgary and have giant park and rides at all the stations, which in all honesty would likely result in higher ridership, but that's not really what our goal is. Like I said, our system seems to have done okay so I'm glad we went this way.

Also, social engineering? Really? There is no requirement that TransLink needs to take up the expense of building parking lots by its stations. If anything, building parking lots is what would be social engineering, since it would make today's attitude of "good luck getting around with our a car" even more prevalent.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Park and Rides are meant for rural areas that only have one/two buses that come every hour.

Riding a bus is just not viable if it doesn't come every 15 minutes. People will take their cars to park-and-rides that serve rapid transit, because the Rapid Transit comes no less than every 5 minutes.

And unfortunately running smaller buses/shuttles are twice as expensive as running larger buses. So it is only cost effective to have sub-15 minute bus routes if they are always full. The transit provider will favor having the large bus come half as often.

Exactly! For example, the shuttle buses come every 30 minutes. So by your 15 minute requirement, Coquitlam Central and its surrounding areas are an absolute fail, hence the requirement for Park and Rides. And given the regular 20 minute delay of the 169 to Braid, it might as well be every 30 minutes in terms of time spent getting to the rapid transit station.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Buses are still packed, so clearly our approach does work. It's not about increasing transit use, it's about making the right urban planning decision in a larger context.

Also, social engineering? Really? There is no requirement that TransLink needs to take up the expense of building parking lots by its stations. If anything, building parking lots is what would be social engineering, since it would make today's attitude of "good luck getting around with our a car" even more prevalent.

I see nothing wrong with that Edmonton transit station. And buses are "packed"...not so much in the greater scheme of things. Maybe in Vancouver and Burnaby where transit is world class paid by mostly by outer suburban taxpayers. But at the end of the day, the car is still king and pretty much a requirement for most people in the Metro Vancouver area and will continue no matter how much buses you put on the roads. So might as well adapt to this phenomenon and put Park and Riddes so people can park their cars and take rapid transit.

Yes there is no requirement for Translink to build Park and Rides but there is also no requirement for Translink to build those Poodle statues or art in the stations, and yet they are there. People will support Translink spending money to improve the system, like the recommended solutions from the Skytrain shutdown review. But clearly here is another example of some dumb decisions based on idealogy. All the more reason to vote "No".

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Maybe in Vancouver and Burnaby where transit is world class paid by mostly by outer suburban taxpayers. But at the end of the day, the car is still king and pretty much a requirement for most people in the Metro Vancouver area and will continue no matter how much buses you put on the roads.

I take exception to your claim that Vancouver bus service is paid for by suburban taxpayers. The only money-making bus routes are in Vancouver because transit utilization is so high here, and even the ones that loose money loose less than most of the routes outside Vancouver. I believe that Vancouver taxpayers are paying their fair share for the services they receive relative to the other regions.

If you want "world class" bus service outside Vancouver then you have to do what Vancouver does and provide lots of transit while at the same refraining from pandering to motorists. Building park and rides is not means to achieve that goal, voting "yes" and adding more bus service is.

[SOSS]

Large park n rides only encourage further urban sprawl. Calgary has already been mentioned. they also get filled up with people from further out of town. Airdrie, Cochrane, Okotoms etc residents clog the C-Train parking lots.

[finalcoolman]

Just came across a video on YouTube from August, 1999, shows the outbound spur at Columbia station just AFTER it was constructed but BEFORE the Millennium Line was built.

https://youtu.be/_pqsspOS6Wo?t=27m10s

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by SOSS

Large park n rides only encourage further urban sprawl. Calgary has already been mentioned. they also get filled up with people from further out of town. Airdrie, Cochrane, Okotoms etc residents clog the C-Train parking lots.

Sprawl isn't encouraged by Park and Rides. Park and Rides are a tool to adapt to the existing sprawl that happens anyway. Its a means to curb traffic by encouraging people who already have cars and won't give them up not to drive all the way to work or school when rapid transit is available.

Sprawl is created due to demand for housing that people can afford. As long as prices in the city remain high and the population is growing, sprawl will continue. And it also doesn't help that developers pretty much have free reign on building houses and malls farther and farther away.

[MIPS]

I always interpreted the Park and Ride system here as a solution for getting commuters to the SkyTrain in remote areas where buses run at lower frequencies. Scott Road was still out (and technically still is) in the industrial boonies when it opened so a place to park your car for the day while you were in Burnaby to save 30-45 minutes of driving just to reach Metrotown sounded justified, then as the line expands and more bus routes are added you can subdivide it up for commercial expansion as passengers from say where Surrey Central is now no longer needed to travel long distances to reach a station. It simply acts as a temporary bridge.

[red-paladin]

This divergence was partly my fault, but still, lets get the conversation back on track. We've hit every angle to the park and ride issue already anyway.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I always interpreted the Park and Ride system here as a solution for getting commuters to the SkyTrain in remote areas where buses run at lower frequencies. Scott Road was still out (and technically still is) in the industrial boonies when it opened so a place to park your car for the day while you were in Burnaby to save 30-45 minutes of driving just to reach Metrotown sounded justified, then as the line expands and more bus routes are added you can subdivide it up for commercial expansion as passengers from say where Surrey Central is now no longer needed to travel long distances to reach a station. It simply acts as a temporary bridge.

Agreed! Like Maple Ridge.
The naysayers should try relying on the C49 (formally the 721) and then suggest we don't need a park and ride at the closest Skytrain station. Even the 701 at night makes one want to use their car for the return trip across the Pitt.
Many times my friends and I would drive towards Braid and then as there was no place to park, just keep driving in the Vancouver. Had their been a park and ride, us, and many others, would have freed up space on the roads for 1/2 the journey by using the train
That's why I suggest that IF the Coquitlam P&R gets redeveloped (let's face it's ripe for development) that they include some sort of parking for commuters. It can easily be hidden or underground or kept to the back in a parkade out of sight.

[hipster duck]

I don't mind massive park and ride stations if the surrounding area has almost zero potential for urbanization.

Scott Road is a good example: it's in an industrial area in a floodplain near major highways. Templeton, being about a kilometer from the end of YVR's runway, is another.

[GeeCee]

Stopped for maintenance yet again.. seems unusual for a TBM to need to stop to be retooled so often, but maybe it's just being reported more often because of the sinkhole issues that have been experienced?

[cornholio]

I would use transit more often if there were more park and rides. Hell, I live a 20min walk from a skytrain station. I don't remember the last time I took skytrain yet alone a bus. It just does not make sense, and I go downtown at least a few times per month (all be it not during rush hour periods). Had there been a park and ride at the station near me, and others, I certainly would have taken transit way more often then never.

[officedweller]

Pic facing Lincoln Station site from Evergreen Line facebook - a bit dated since the webcam shows the superstructure already erected:


https://www.facebook.com/evergreenline/photos_stream


http://wcs.pbaeng.com/projects/R1_Transit


http://wcs.pbaeng.com/projects/R1_Transit


http://wcs.pbaeng.com/projects/R1_Transit

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by cornholio

I would use transit more often if there were more park and rides. Hell, I live a 20min walk from a skytrain station. I don't remember the last time I took skytrain yet alone a bus. It just does not make sense, and I go downtown at least a few times per month (all be it not during rush hour periods). Had there been a park and ride at the station near me, and others, I certainly would have taken transit way more often then never.

We're trying to build communities, not ridership. Not to mention that TOD often results in greater transit use than a parking lot does.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

We're trying to build communities, not ridership.

Actually, we're trying to do both. The problem with park and rides is that they reduce ridership on local bus service in favour of the transit backbones. If there aren't enough local bus users then it's uneconomical to provide good local bus service, and that hurts the people who can't drive to the rapid transit line.

[deasine]

I think many of you are also forgetting the real estate element here. Often times around SkyTrain stations, the cost of a P&R is unjustified as the cost of the actual land itself is worth far more for residential and commercial buildings. And historically, we have seen significant real estate uplifts around SkyTrain stations, especially when the municipality approves rezoning.