Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[TakeFive]

Transportation Addendum on how it relates to Phoenix.

In response to my lack of knowledge inquiry, EngiNerd indicated that the West Line (in this case) was a drainage infrastructure project masquerading as a transit line and that the costs would indeed be covered by the transit budget (in Denver).

With respect to drainage (or W&S etc.) the system capacity was likely planned and built a long, long time ago and never anticipated the growth that has occurred. Or they had to conform to budget limitations at the time of construction. This is what makes transit projects (for example) so expensive. Might as well assess what's underneath and do any upgrades at the same time.

Thinking of how Phoenix is laid out it seems like 7th Street might be a good candidate for a complete rebuild and for accommodating BRT style buses (or LRT). From downtown, even if the "street rebuild" started north of I-10. It could initially run up to Northern. Extensions to Bell Road or along Cave Creek/Cactus could be future options. In fact transit choices could be combined. LRT up to Northern and BRT from there for example.

If as much as a third of costs are for "other" infrastructure upgrades the value of the Feds kicking in 40% or more is magnified.

[TakeFive]

Taz Loomans articulates it much better than I can HERE.

The arterial roads in Phoenix, for example, are on average about the size of highways in other parts of the country and the world. Sometimes an arterial in Phoenix is 7 lanes wide, with three lanes going either way and a middle turn lane. This ample room for cars ensures that cars move along the roads very fast.

Sounds good right? Well, not if you want your city to be people-oriented instead of car-oriented... A people-oriented city, on the other hand, is about creating spaces for people to walk, bike, stand, sit and gather in the public in ways that are safe and enjoyable.

I wasn't, admittedly familiar with Taz as I'm sure others are. But I caught up to her on her way out of town HERE.

[ljbuild]

The Feds. finally approved plans for the south mountain freeway

that has been on the drawing board for Decades, LONG BEFORE

AHAWATUCKEE. Early next year is when the bulldozers will be in action to

build this project. IT will open to traffic in 2020 or possibly earlier.

This will be a hell of a bypass going to the west side from Chandler, Queen

Creek, or more so vise versa.

[mdpx]

Originally Posted by ljbuild

The Feds. finally approved plans for the south mountain freeway

that has been on the drawing board for Decades, LONG BEFORE

AHAWATUCKEE. Early next year is when the bulldozers will be in action to

build this project. IT will open to traffic in 2020 or possibly earlier.

This will be a hell of a bypass going to the west side from Chandler, Queen

Creek, or more so vise versa.

my eyes, my eyes!!!!

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Taz Loomans articulates it much better than I can HERE.

I wasn't, admittedly familiar with Taz as I'm sure others are. But I caught up to her on her way out of town HERE.

Regarding Phoenix's overly large arterial road network; I see great potential for road diets and city beautification projects, such as, tree lined boulevards for miles.

Some of these arterials no longer need the capacity anymore with the completion of the freeway network and could easily install dedicated BRT lanes in the median separated from traffic. IE: the 7s for N/S mobility.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

Regarding Phoenix's overly large arterial road network; I see great potential for road diets and city beautification projects, such as, tree lined boulevards for miles.

Some of these arterials no longer need the capacity anymore with the completion of the freeway network and could easily install dedicated BRT lanes in the median separated from traffic. IE: the 7s for N/S mobility.

Agreed. Thats the way I see it too!

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

(Some) people hesitate to locate in places on the edges because there is a limit to the commute that they will tolerate. If you make it easier to commute from those places you make them more attractive. Buckeye had about 50,000 people in the 2010 census. The Buckeye Chamber of Commerce says



So much for your 75% built notion. The South Mountain Freeway would enable that sort of craziness. If that isn't sprawl, I don't know what is.

Go look up the wildly speculative land that Buckeye gobbled up in the Hasseyampa valley. It is nearly the same land area of Phoenix (which is where they get the million residents number.

There is enough land for 1 million people but no way are a million people going to live there. Maybe in like 60 years it will become like riverside is to LA but I doubt it.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Go look up the wildly speculative land that Buckeye gobbled up in the Hasseyampa valley. It is nearly the same land area of Phoenix (which is where they get the million residents number.

There is enough land for 1 million people but no way are a million people going to live there. Maybe in like 60 years it will become like riverside is to LA but I doubt it.

The point is not whether or not Buckeye's pipedream is feasible. There is plenty of land for a lot more sprawl, some of which will happen and building the SMF just creates more of it.

[TakeFive]

"Three groups vie for $1.9B Loop 202 South Mountain freeway project"
Mar 20, 2015 by Eric Jay Toll, Phoenix Business Journal

Three public-private partnership groups have been short-listed by Arizona Department of Transportation for the contract to design, build and maintain the 22-mile final leg of Loop 202.

A final request for proposals will be distributed to the three groups this spring, ADOT said, and the contract for the freeway will be issued by the end of the year. The project will take four years to complete.

This state's government continues to not only support sprawl but encourage it. They are currently considering bills that would preclude cities from doing certain things, some which would be deemed "urban friendly." Talk about over-controlling, condescending, manipulative "parents."

The City of Phoenix just needs to do what it can to promote an attractive urban environment.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

[SIZE="3"]

This state's government continues to not only support sprawl but encourage it. They are currently considering bills that would preclude cities from doing certain things, some which would be deemed "urban friendly." Talk about over-controlling, condescending, manipulative "parents."

The City of Phoenix just needs to do what it can to promote an attractive urban environment.

That's part of a nationwide trend in red states called "pre-emption." Basically, the same state legislators who complain about federal interference then take away rights from municipal governments. The NY Times had a good story about it recently:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/24/us/gov...makers-tell-cities-but-not-too-much.html

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

That's part of a nationwide trend in red states called "pre-emption." Basically, the same state legislators who complain about federal interference then take away rights from municipal governments. The NY Times had a good story about it recently:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/24/us/gov...makers-tell-cities-but-not-too-much.html

Thanks. That's a good read.

I shouldn't be surprised; I'm not surprised; I just hadn't connected the dots. I haven't followed "that stuff" as much the last few years.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

That's part of a nationwide trend in red states called "pre-emption." Basically, the same state legislators who complain about federal interference then take away rights from municipal governments. The NY Times had a good story about it recently:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/24/us/gov...makers-tell-cities-but-not-too-much.html

Case in point: Tempe and Flagstaff city councils are considering implementing plastic bag restrictions. Yesterday (I forget the bill number), but the state legislature presented a bill that would deny municipalities the ability to male such decisions.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Case in point: Tempe and Flagstaff city councils are considering implementing plastic bag restrictions. Yesterday (I forget the bill number), but the state legislature presented a bill that would deny municipalities the ability to male such decisions.

Exactly, bills are in play this session that would preempt efforts by cities to ban plastic bags, to require developers to replace some affordable housing removed by their projects, and to dictate appropriate vegetation and shade. It's all done in the name of "freedom" and "liberty," but it's often business interests that are really at work.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Exactly, bills are in play this session that would preempt efforts by cities to ban plastic bags, to require developers to replace some affordable housing removed by their projects, and to dictate appropriate vegetation and shade. It's all done in the name of "freedom" and "liberty," but it's often business interests that are really at work.

These are the same morons who scream "overreach" whenever the feds tell THEM what to do.

[Buckeye Native 001]

As an aside, its insane how much the budget is balanced on the backs of counties (rural ones in particular, one of which I'm a resident and employee). We haven't received designated HURF funding (has anyone whose supposed to get it from the state seen a dime of it in the past six or seven years?) since the recession and both my city and county had to pass tax increases last year just to get our awful roads fixed and maintained.

One of these days, the DOJ is going to have to step in and start investigating the corruption and cronyism taking place in the state's legislative chambers and the Executive Tower. I thought we might have reached our breaking point last year before the gubernatorial election, but apparently nobody bothered to vote.

[TakeFive]

First Things First

Looking at me map; why not start with a "green streets" rebuild on Indian School from 19th Ave. to 16th St. that would include low floor BRT style buses along landscaped medians with curb parking along landscaped sidewalks. You'd only need a few buses.

The simple goal would be to get investment moving south of Camelback (towards downtown) spurred by an attractive street with transit access. If it works you could do the same with Thomas.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by johnnyb588

Tell me about it. A big problem with initiatives like complete streets is that it's so new that most people in the design field have very little experience to understand what works and what doesn't work in certain application. A complete street is not an exact science at all, and I think that when certain folks within a city's government see it done one way, they assume that THE way it needs to be done for their city without opening the door to other possibilities. That's how you end up with something like 1st St.

And the huge wrench that gets thrown into the complete streets cog on every single project is right-of-way cost, which is why you end up with situations like you mentioned earlier where businesses seemingly control the public right-of-way. Complete streets are awesome, and awfully expensive. For a city like Phoenix that did not plan to have the need for complete streets from the beginning and may or may not even justify the need currently or in the future, it's a difficult proposition to get the council to jump on board with spending boatloads of money on projects that may or may not be necessary in a developing field.

Reading your comment suggested that another comment posted earlier today on the Denver thread was relevant.

Originally Posted by seventwenty

A Case Study in Flawed Street Design: The New Urbanist neighborhood of Stapleton, Colorado, suffers from compromised planning standards.

Article was by Eric Jaffe and dated April 1st.

[TakeFive]

It's time to change the rules.

By the end of 2020 ADOT will have completed the new South Mountain Freeway of 8 shiny new lances. This also completes the original (freeway) vision from 1985 when it all started IIRC.

Regional interests should ask the voters to redirect half of the 5/10ths percent sales tax to transit projects when the new freeway is completed. Alternatively, Phoenix, Glendale and Peoria could cooperatively take the proposal to their own voters. Specific proposed projects should be presented to voters of course even if changeable.

I'll assume that at a minimum Glendale and Peoria along with Phoenix would see the need and benefits. This would give Phoenix additional revenue for both projects that should be done on their own dime as well as mutual interest projects among cities.

[Prestige Worldwide]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

It's time to change the rules.

By the end of 2020 ADOT will have completed the new South Mountain Freeway of 8 shiny new lances. This also completes the original (freeway) vision from 1985 when it all started IIRC.

Regional interests should ask the voters to redirect half of the 5/10ths percent sales tax to transit projects when the new freeway is completed. Alternatively, Phoenix, Glendale and Peoria could cooperatively take the proposal to their own voters. Specific proposed projects should be presented to voters of course even if changeable.

I'll assume that at a minimum Glendale and Peoria along with Phoenix would see the need and benefits. This would give Phoenix additional revenue for both projects that should be done on their own dime as well as mutual interest projects among cities.

You're on the right path here. It's definitely time for Phoenix/Glendale/Tempe to seize upon the current share of Prop 400 $$$ that goes to new freeway construction. We simply don't require the same scale of new freeway construction and the aforementioned three cities certainly don't need anymore - they need more transit. Voters probably won't go for all that money being plowed into transit, so it will need to be balanced out with street maintenance. The current tax expires in 2025 I believe. I would predict a county-wide renewal will be put on the ballot in 2020. I also think that the Legislature needs to allow the County to bring the question to the voters, which is going to be problematic (the Legislature was trying to meddle with the Prop 400 amount for Transit, but Gov. Napolitano exerted some influence to get the Legislature to allow the County to ask for the current percentage).

[TakeFive]

Riding the train
high on... traveling?

PHX Sky Train Ridership up 30 percent
Apr 14, 2015 by Mike Sunnucks, Phoenix Business Journal

Ridership on the PHX Sky Train link between Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport and Metro light rail is up 30 percent since the shuttle was extended to Terminal 3.