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  #2061  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2015, 5:45 PM
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1overcosc 1overcosc is offline
 
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For the record, I think the city should have adopted this pre-boarding payment system with the Transitway when it first opened. Most BRT systems worldwide do this (like the VIVA in Toronto, for example). One of the flaws of the Transitway is how insanely long dwell times can be at places like Hurdman and Tunney's.

Last edited by 1overcosc; Mar 11, 2015 at 5:58 PM.
     
     
  #2062  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2015, 8:10 PM
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silvergate silvergate is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
For the record, I think the city should have adopted this pre-boarding payment system with the Transitway when it first opened. Most BRT systems worldwide do this (like the VIVA in Toronto, for example). One of the flaws of the Transitway is how insanely long dwell times can be at places like Hurdman and Tunney's.
It's almost crazy that they didn't. It seems like that system should be the first thought when setting up rapid transit.
     
     
  #2063  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2015, 3:21 AM
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rocketphish rocketphish is online now
 
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Construction Update
Week of March 9



Albert Street work

Albert Street Civic Works


As part of the initial works for the Albert Street widening, street light relocation is underway. Trenching, shoring, and sanitary sewer pipe installation continue for the LeBreton Flats Diversion Chamber. Lane and multi-use pathway closures are ongoing through summer on Albert Street. For more information on the Cyclist Detour Map: www.ottawa.ca/confederationline.


Drainage installation in Lyon Station cavern

Lyon Station Cavern

Pouring of mudslab and drainage installation is complete in the ventilation pits. Work for final lining is ongoing with tunnel draining and waterproofing.


Hoarding construction in Place de Ville

Lyon Station East Entrance


Work inside Place de Ville for Lyon Station east entrance includes hoarding construction and removal of architectural finishes such as drywall.



Parliament Station Cavern

Chewrocka continues to excavate the central pillar and upper drifts in Parliament Station cavern. Cavern support works continue with pipe roof installation and L-wall construction.


Umbrella installation inside the Rideau Station cavern

Rideau Station Cavern


Rideau Station cavern excavation advances as Crocodile Rouge mines the top heading. Tunnel reinforcement is ongoing with shotcrete, wire mesh and bolt installation, as well as umbrella installation. Jawbreaker is making progress on the running tunnel bench.


Ongoing Scotiabank demolition

Rideau Station East Entrance


North wall demolition and debris removal is ongoing at the future Rideau Station east entrance.


Works progress in the light maintenance area of the Administration and Maintenance building

Belfast Yard Administration and Maintenance Building/Vehicle Storage Shed


Pouring of concrete slabs, underground plumbing, electrical, drywall and framing continue. Exterior work includes curtain wall, glazing and panel installations. Roofing work is progressing on the shed.


Belfast Yard Connector

Belfast Yard Connector


Excavation and shoring continue on the connector north of the VIA Rail tracks. Formwork and concrete pouring is expected to begin this week. On Tremblay Road, excavation and shoring and removal of the old watermain is ongoing.


Trenching in Highway 417 median lane

Highway 417 Roadworks


Ongoing work in the median includes backfilling, electrical work, the installation of light pole bases and conduit installations. Work continues on deep foundations for two new Variable Messaging Signs (VMS) to be located near Vanier Parkway (eastbound lanes) and St. Laurent Boulevard (westbound lanes).


Hurdman Bridge deck formwork progresses

Hurdman Bridge (Highway 417 over Rideau River)


Crews continue reconstructing the median span of the bridge. Deck and rebar work is scheduled to begin in the spring. Intermittent flagging will continue at the Rideau River east and west Multi-Use Pathways through to the spring.


Work at Vanier Parkway staging area

Vanier Parkway Overpass


Final bridge work will resume in the spring. Crews continue to remove concrete from the staging area, as weather permits.


Belfast Bridge works

Belfast Bridge


Tube railings are being installed along the parapet barrier wall.

Upcoming Construction Activities

In the coming weeks, the following construction activities will occur:
• Hurdman Station substructure and foundation work is scheduled to resume.
• Final bridge works will occur at the Lees Avenue overpass, Vanier Parkway overpass and Belfast Bridge.

Additional construction activities scheduled for the spring include:
• Blair Station and St-Laurent Station utilities work are scheduled to begin in April.
• The St-Laurent Station temporary ramp to Highway 417 westbound construction will begin in April.
• Paving and final intersection reconfiguration works at Lemieux Street and St. Laurent Boulevard will resume in the spring.
• Trackwork is scheduled to begin in the Belfast Yard Administrative and Maintenance building in the spring.
• Lyon Station east entrance excavation is anticipated to begin in spring.
• Preparatory Scott Street widening works begin late spring from Tunney’s Pasture to Empress Avenue.

http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/construction/construction-update-13/
     
     
  #2064  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2015, 2:51 PM
DubberDom DubberDom is offline
 
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In Fall 2015, the current Transitway will close and the "Alternate Transitway" along 417 will be in operation, does anybody have the map and design for the alternate transitway? How will Buses access stations etc...?
     
     
  #2065  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2015, 9:47 PM
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I'm 99% certain that no blueprints or detailed ideas for such have been made public. I think at this point only RTG is aware.
     
     
  #2066  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2015, 10:10 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
For the record, I think the city should have adopted this pre-boarding payment system with the Transitway when it first opened. Most BRT systems worldwide do this (like the VIVA in Toronto, for example). One of the flaws of the Transitway is how insanely long dwell times can be at places like Hurdman and Tunney's.
The number of runs operating on rear-boarding equipment, where the driver refuses to open those rear-boarding doors, doesn't help.
     
     
  #2067  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 10:01 AM
Buggys Buggys is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
The number of runs operating on rear-boarding equipment, where the driver refuses to open those rear-boarding doors, doesn't help.
Lots of people cheat the system. There needs to be no rear entry unless there's a gated fare control system.
     
     
  #2068  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 12:00 PM
eltodesukane eltodesukane is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buggys View Post
Lots of people cheat the system. There needs to be no rear entry unless there's a gated fare control system.
Why not have free transit, with no gate and no fare, paying with our taxes instead?

Last edited by eltodesukane; Mar 18, 2015 at 1:10 PM.
     
     
  #2069  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 12:44 PM
JCL JCL is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
The number of runs operating on rear-boarding equipment, where the driver refuses to open those rear-boarding doors, doesn't help.
If it's an express route where express fare premium is being collected (particularly during the PM rush hour), I can understand why drivers don't want to allow back door boarding. In fact, I actually prefer express bus drivers not allowing back door boarding - it prevents regular fare paying users from getting on the back without topping up and using the express bus for only a short ride.
     
     
  #2070  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 1:00 PM
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1overcosc 1overcosc is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eltodesukane View Post
Why not have free transit, with no gate and no fare, paying with our income tax instead?
Would be quite expensive--in the neighbourhood of $2B/year for Ontario alone. Plus transit could get overloaded and require more money on top of that.

If the government was about to commit that much money to transit, I'd much rather it be invested in expanded transit service than fare elimination.
     
     
  #2071  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 1:00 PM
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Aylmer Aylmer is offline
 
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I admit to being an occasional fare-evader: for short one or two station hops downtown (Campus-Rideau, Metcalfe to Kent, etc.), I'll hop on a bus if there's one within sight. It makes little sense for me to pay the same price to go 300m than to go 30km.

With Presto, I'd like to see us put in place a parallel ticketing system based on distance: if you only travel a certain distance or less, you can tap your card at the exit and it'll top it back up.

Example:
If I go from Campus to Rideau, I'll tap my card at the entrance and it'll deduct $3, but if I also tap on my way out of Rideau, it'll put $3 back on.
For longer short distances, (Lees-Lyon) it might only put back $2.50 or $2.00.
If you don't tap on your way out, then your trip will have cost the normal $3.

That way, short trips are no longer discouraged, but unlike other distance-based fare systems, it wouldn't penalise long-distance trips either. Especially if we want to "extend" our core along the LRT line (from Bayview to Lees), there needs to be some quick and free way to tie together the different components. Transit could very well play that role (along with cycling infrastructure), but it can't be the same price as going to Orleans.
     
     
  #2072  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 1:07 PM
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1overcosc 1overcosc is offline
 
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I don't think the system will have exit fare gates (like London has). It wouldn't work well with the fare-paid bus transfer system the city has chosen. I suppose you could have machines near exists that people could tap voluntarily to get a refund...
     
     
  #2073  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 1:09 PM
eltodesukane eltodesukane is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
Would be quite expensive--in the neighbourhood of $2B/year for Ontario alone. .
But isn't it what it cost anyway?
The cost would be the same, just the way we manage the payments.
Time and money would be saved by not collecting fares.
Streets and roads are free to use, we pay the cost with our taxes.
Why not do the same for transit?
     
     
  #2074  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 1:30 PM
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Aylmer Aylmer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I don't think the system will have exit fare gates (like London has). It wouldn't work well with the fare-paid bus transfer system the city has chosen. I suppose you could have machines near exists that people could tap voluntarily to get a refund...
That's exactly it - it's voluntary: If you don't tap, you don't get your fare back. It could be set up by just putting one or two presto tap surfaces near the exits with a sign that invites people to tap for the distance reduced fare.
     
     
  #2075  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 2:05 PM
Radster Radster is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
That's exactly it - it's voluntary: If you don't tap, you don't get your fare back. It could be set up by just putting one or two presto tap surfaces near the exits with a sign that invites people to tap for the distance reduced fare.
Its what the pass holders do in Perth, Australia from what I noticed. I was confused at first why everyone would tap their card as the exited the busses, but then I figured out why. If they don`t tap, they get charged max fare. Simple concept, and I am sure its like this in many other big cities too, hopefully in Ottawa too at some point in the near future.
     
     
  #2076  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 2:25 PM
GoTrans GoTrans is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
I admit to being an occasional fare-evader: for short one or two station hops downtown (Campus-Rideau, Metcalfe to Kent, etc.), I'll hop on a bus if there's one within sight. It makes little sense for me to pay the same price to go 300m than to go 30km.

With Presto, I'd like to see us put in place a parallel ticketing system based on distance: if you only travel a certain distance or less, you can tap your card at the exit and it'll top it back up.

Example:
If I go from Campus to Rideau, I'll tap my card at the entrance and it'll deduct $3, but if I also tap on my way out of Rideau, it'll put $3 back on.
For longer short distances, (Lees-Lyon) it might only put back $2.50 or $2.00.
If you don't tap on your way out, then your trip will have cost the normal $3.

That way, short trips are no longer discouraged, but unlike other distance-based fare systems, it wouldn't penalise long-distance trips either. Especially if we want to "extend" our core along the LRT line (from Bayview to Lees), there needs to be some quick and free way to tie together the different components. Transit could very well play that role (along with cycling infrastructure), but it can't be the same price as going to Orleans.
I agree with you as far as the concept of paying more for the further you travel. As far as I am concerned all travel, no matter how short should be subject to some minimum charge. The price per km should also be reduced for a long trip but the total price should be greater than for a short trip. Due to the indirect routing of the network resulting in transfers, long trips should have some sort of discount built in, but the fare on long trips should never be less than a short trip. With Presto this would be very doable. This would mimic realty as the longer the trip, the higher the cost whether driving or taking a taxi.
     
     
  #2077  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 3:38 PM
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Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
 
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An umbrella being put in place at the Rideau Station cavern: "The sequential excavation method being used to mine the tunnel includes the installation of these umbrellas to reinforce and support the tunnel during excavation. It’s built with horizontal piling; holes are drilled and then steel pipes are inserted and grouted in place with concrete. "

• Video Link
     
     
  #2078  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 3:44 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buggys View Post
Lots of people cheat the system. There needs to be no rear entry unless there's a gated fare control system.
Evidence? Or just a feeling.
     
     
  #2079  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 4:49 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
I admit to being an occasional fare-evader: for short one or two station hops downtown (Campus-Rideau, Metcalfe to Kent, etc.), I'll hop on a bus if there's one within sight. It makes little sense for me to pay the same price to go 300m than to go 30km.

With Presto, I'd like to see us put in place a parallel ticketing system based on distance: if you only travel a certain distance or less, you can tap your card at the exit and it'll top it back up.

Example:
If I go from Campus to Rideau, I'll tap my card at the entrance and it'll deduct $3, but if I also tap on my way out of Rideau, it'll put $3 back on.
For longer short distances, (Lees-Lyon) it might only put back $2.50 or $2.00.
If you don't tap on your way out, then your trip will have cost the normal $3.

That way, short trips are no longer discouraged, but unlike other distance-based fare systems, it wouldn't penalise long-distance trips either. Especially if we want to "extend" our core along the LRT line (from Bayview to Lees), there needs to be some quick and free way to tie together the different components. Transit could very well play that role (along with cycling infrastructure), but it can't be the same price as going to Orleans.
The idea that it is OK for you to evade paying your fare ‘because you are just going 300 metres’ is folly for many reasons, but one of the main ones is that you are not alone in doing it.

Let’s say that you illegally board a bus at Campus Station to ride the 860 metres (not 300m) to Mackenzie-King Station because the Rideau Centre has a nifty new food court that has all your favorite choices. Did you think that you are the only one who is doing this? There are undoubtedly many others who feel that they are only going a short distance so they don’t feel obliged to pay their fair share. Surely the incremental cost of one person taking a free ride is not significant; but what about the fifty people who do the same thing? Is it becoming more significant now?

On a parallel line, the 417 becomes so crowed such that it requires widening because individuals decide that they need to take their own car because … <insert reason here – maybe a person is just going two exits, and not the entire length of the road>. It is not a problem to have a lone extra car on the road; but it does add up fast to become an issue as many single cars are added.

Well, those free-loading transit-cheats can just squeeze on to a bus that is running by anyway, so there is no additional cost to OC Transpo, right? Well for a single person there might not be many additional resources needed (although it is not zero), but when the numbers start to climb, then there needs to be another bus and operator added, and the costs behind that. Then there is the idea that the extra bus likely doesn’t just run for the one trip between Campus and Mackenzie-King stations; it should probably be used for an entire shift – since we need to pay the extra operator for a minimum number of hours. Beside the people traveling from Campus Station, there are also the people taking a free-ride from Kent to the Rideau Centre to enjoy the food court, too. They might need an extra bus also. As more people see that others don't need to pay, more will think that it is alright for them as well; after all, who would want to pay if others get away with stealing a ride.

Our system is based on honour, with everyone paying a small portion of the cost. Realistically, there will always be cheats who think that they are above the law, or that the rules should not apply to them in some instance, but that needs to be kept to a minimum level. If it comes to a point that it is OK to scam the system, then there will be no system as it will break down. When people start to simply take what they are not entitled to, then society fails. The honour system only works when people remain honest. I find it very unfortunate that the dishonesty of a few has forced the City to spend additional millions on measures to ensure that people obey the law and pay their fare.

Our City has decided that the cost of our transit system will be shared by all riders (with some concessions for the young and elderly). You can disagree with the rules that have been put in place, but it is not OK to disregard them because you do not agree with them. If you feel strongly that the cost of transit could be divided more fairly, then you should be lobbying to have the rules changed.
     
     
  #2080  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2015, 6:45 PM
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Aylmer Aylmer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
The idea that it is OK for you to evade paying your fare ‘because you are just going 300 metres’ is folly for many reasons, but one of the main ones is that you are not alone in doing it.

Let’s say that you illegally board a bus at Campus Station to ride the 860 metres (not 300m) to Mackenzie-King Station because the Rideau Centre has a nifty new food court that has all your favorite choices. Did you think that you are the only one who is doing this? There are undoubtedly many others who feel that they are only going a short distance so they don’t feel obliged to pay their fair share. Surely the incremental cost of one person taking a free ride is not significant; but what about the fifty people who do the same thing? Is it becoming more significant now?

On a parallel line, the 417 becomes so crowed such that it requires widening because individuals decide that they need to take their own car because … <insert reason here – maybe a person is just going two exits, and not the entire length of the road>. It is not a problem to have a lone extra car on the road; but it does add up fast to become an issue as many single cars are added.

Well, those free-loading transit-cheats can just squeeze on to a bus that is running by anyway, so there is no additional cost to OC Transpo, right? Well for a single person there might not be many additional resources needed (although it is not zero), but when the numbers start to climb, then there needs to be another bus and operator added, and the costs behind that. Then there is the idea that the extra bus likely doesn’t just run for the one trip between Campus and Mackenzie-King stations; it should probably be used for an entire shift – since we need to pay the extra operator for a minimum number of hours. Beside the people traveling from Campus Station, there are also the people taking a free-ride from Kent to the Rideau Centre to enjoy the food court, too. They might need an extra bus also. As more people see that others don't need to pay, more will think that it is alright for them as well; after all, who would want to pay if others get away with stealing a ride.

Our system is based on honour, with everyone paying a small portion of the cost. Realistically, there will always be cheats who think that they are above the law, or that the rules should not apply to them in some instance, but that needs to be kept to a minimum level. If it comes to a point that it is OK to scam the system, then there will be no system as it will break down. When people start to simply take what they are not entitled to, then society fails. The honour system only works when people remain honest. I find it very unfortunate that the dishonesty of a few has forced the City to spend additional millions on measures to ensure that people obey the law and pay their fare.

Our City has decided that the cost of our transit system will be shared by all riders (with some concessions for the young and elderly). You can disagree with the rules that have been put in place, but it is not OK to disregard them because you do not agree with them. If you feel strongly that the cost of transit could be divided more fairly, then you should be lobbying to have the rules changed.
Well I think that we can both agree that you've expertly thrown my straw-man down your slippery slope

Ok, let's look at this: from what I understand from your argumentation, you're saying that
1. Fare evasion encourages others to do it
2. If more people do it, it further taxes the system
3. Space is at a premium, so fare evaders displace paying patrons

I'm not certain if the first argument holds up to scrutiny: there are regularly enforced dissuasive measures (fines, mostly) which prevent fare evasion from becoming a widespread problem. I cannot imagine that there is anyone who takes the bus every day without a pass because they can both justify the monthly cost and it's unlikely they won't get caught. As a freeloading entitled whippersnapper, I wouldn't take the bus more than a few minutes for the same reasons: if I'm going a distance I wouldn't otherwise walk, the $3 is probably worth the expense and even if it weren't, the risk that I might end up paying 20 times that in fines gets less and less tolerable the longer I'm on the bus. Conversely, if I'm taking the bus from Kent to Rideau, the ride is both less valuable and less risky. I might be biased, but I'd rather see the VALUE adjusted rather than the risk.

The second argument is interesting, but you threw it down a slippery slope: I don't think there have EVER been fifty fare evaders on a bus. I would be surprised if there were ever more than three or four at any given time, judging from how there isn't a stampede of people heading out the door whenever a fare inspector walks in.

Which brings me to the third point. The argument that space is at a premium only applies to the buses which are at maximum crush capacity. If there are more people who want to get on the bus than there is space in it, then it is true that every person not paying a fare is displacing someone who is. But scale matters here: if, as I think we can safely establish, there are rarely more than a handful of fare evaders on a bus at any given time (if that or even at all), I don't believe this to make a material difference in the system's capacity.
But there's also the question of whether fare evasion is more likely at peak hours when space is an issue: Since fare evasion is something which happens mostly on the Transitway trunk downtown (Bay to Lees), fare evaders have their pick of buses that they can take. At rush hour, when there are several buses every minute, I always opt for the most comfortable option, not the most crowded one, so no one is displaced. Another issue is speed: between Laurier and Bay, the buses are VERY slow. So slow, in fact, that the distances that I might othewise have taken the bus for (like Rideau to Bank) are just as fast on foot. In those cases, I'd rather walk than risking anything by taking the bus without a fare.
So yes, a fare evader on a bus which is completely full displaces a paying patron. However, that number is small, made smaller still by the fact that fare evaders are less likely to be on the crowded buses and less likely to be taking the bus at all for short distances at rush hour.


However, I think that your biggest problem with the idea of fare evasion isn't its potential for taxing the system or displacing paying customers - it's what you interpret as blatant disrespect for laws and people's work. There's nothing I can say about that other than to tell you that it isn't some grand gesture of defiance. People make decisions based on the total cost and return on things such as time, money, comfort, risk, etc. based on their personal preferences and thresholds. For my personal criteria, fare evasion between two or three stations downtown generally (but not always) makes sense based on the time that I save versus the risk that I run. I'm not sticking it to the system - I just want to get from A to B. Like with most things, if we want to address the symptoms, we should look at the wider issues:
- Why don't some people want to walk downtown?
- Why do people feel that the risk of being caught is low?
- Why don't people want to pay the fare for those distances?
etc.

We can have a very enriching discussion about many of those questions, but not on moral indignation.

We can address fare evasion (though I question whether it's big enough of a problem to warrant anything beyond what we already have in place), but we really have to ask ourselves whether we'd rather see the problem fixed or the transgressors punished - it isn't the same thing.
     
     
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