Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

Scarborough ICTS trains getting a bad (w)rap:

How come the TTC cars are "notoriously unreliable" while ours are seen as extremely reliable despite their much higher mileage and service hours?

[Mac Write]

TTC=manaully drivenin
SkyTrain=automated

[MIPS]

TTC built the line on a half-finished CLRV right-of-way. They were pretty much forced to switch to ICTS (government wanted a place to show the technology off in a real-world situation) or else the government wouldn't foot their half of the bill for the original and ongoing project. As mentioned, the TTC demanded that an operator be present (the trains are still automated, but they don't move until the operator verifies the doors are closed and pushes a button) for dumb union political reasons, negating the primary reason for running ICTS in the first place.
Because of the modifications their line is simply not designed for the rolling stock and always had major design problems, plus it's not possible to upgrade to MK II or MK III trains without basically rebuilding the major turns and the stations. They don't even have an on-site maintenance facility. Trains needed to be loaded on a flatbed and sent elsewhere in the city.


Image Courtesy of Chris Brown (?)

It also opened several months before Vancouver's fanfare so we got several months to observe a lot of the scaling problems and quickly fix them before we were even finished installing the rails. They had some CRAZY computer problems. The yellow guards over the power rails were only installed here because Scarborough found out the hard way that they ice up really easily. We've been removing with the power rail upgrades simply because that turned out to be something a climate like Vancouver never really ended up worrying about (and instead we use an in-car de-icing system which stains the guideway a nasty brown.)

We might of proven that the technology is scaleable but you probably will not see it used again in southern ontario for a long, long time.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by MIPS

As mentioned, the TTC demanded that an operator be present (the trains are still automated, but they don't move until the operator verifies the doors are closed and pushes a button) for dumb union political reasons, negating the primary reason for running ICTS in the first place.[/SIZE]

...

We might of proven that the technology is scaleable but you probably will not see it used again in southern ontario for a long, long time.

To echo Malcom's claims "obsolete?" , only if you build it wrong in the first place.

We know Bombardier has no problem building unique configurations of the MK II/III cars, particularly they could build A-C-C-B configurations that are smaller for the SRT but the TTC hates the SRT and continues to undermine it. Look at how our Mark II's are configured (where there is clearly a "drivers seat" and the Canada Line is the same in that regard.) A model with a "driver's cab" simply puts a wall directly behind that seat and a door to the left/right of it, removing one set of seats behind the doors.

What I heard is that the drivers over-apply the brakes, that's why they are "notoriously unreliable", you may have noticed this when the Skytrain is driven manually when it snows heavily. Like I'm not sure how one "over-apply's" the brakes on an automated train.
http://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Toronto_Transit_Commission_Scarborough_RT_Line

SRT Problems and Challenges:
...
Constant wheel re-profiling due to an "overly ambitious" braking system.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/scarborough-rt-shuts-down-again-despite-recently-slowing-trains-1.2262889

March 3, 2015
...
Trains were ordered to move no faster than 50 km/h after Feb. 17, according to John Chamberlain, the TTC’s Program Manager for Subway Service Improvements.
That change, combined with more braking, has added a few extra minutes to every commute from Kennedy Station to McCowan Stations since Feb. 17.
Before that, the trains were already operating at a lower speed than when first rolled out in 1985 – a maximum of 65 km/h since 2008, instead of 80 km/h.

Compare that to Vancouver where the brakes are never engaged except to emergency stop and to hold the train while the doors are open.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by MIPS

TTC built the line on a half-finished CLRV right-of-way. They were pretty much forced to switch to ICTS (government wanted a place to show the technology off in a real-world situation) or else the government wouldn't foot their half of the bill for the original and ongoing project. As mentioned, the TTC demanded that an operator be present (the trains are still automated, but they don't move until the operator verifies the doors are closed and pushes a button) for dumb union political reasons, negating the primary reason for running ICTS in the first place.

Its kind of sad that unions get to decide that, not the people who own the system.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

How come the TTC cars are "notoriously unreliable" while ours are seen as extremely reliable despite their much higher mileage and service hours?

They aren't. It's bad reporting, not unlike the wrongly yet heavily-reported perception that TransLink here is inherently wasteful. The SRT is actually the TTC's single most reliable service. The TTC said so themselves.
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/20...of-scarborough-rt-is-shameful-james.html

[splashflash]

Originally Posted by MIPS

Because of the modifications their line is simply not designed for the rolling stock and always had major design problems, plus it's not possible to upgrade to MK II or MK III trains without basically rebuilding the major turns and the stations. They don't even have an on-site maintenance facility. Trains needed to be loaded on a flatbed and sent elsewhere in the city.


Image Courtesy of Chris Brown (?)

It also opened several months before Vancouver's fanfare so we got several months to observe a lot of the scaling problems and quickly fix them before we were even finished installing the rails. They had some CRAZY computer problems. The yellow guards over the power rails were only installed here because Scarborough found out the hard way that they ice up really easily. We've been removing with the power rail upgrades simply because that turned out to be something a climate like Vancouver never really ended up worrying about (and instead we use an in-car de-icing system which stains the guideway a nasty brown.)

We might of proven that the technology is scaleable but you probably will not see it used again in southern ontario for a long, long time.

In fact upgrading the SRT to accomodate Mark II trains was studied in about 2006 by Dr. Soberman, a former Toronto civil engineering professor, and was half as costly as downgrading to standard Lrt. The Lrt lobby ensured the option was dropped, despite Lrt requiring several years of 'bustitution' or costlier subway on an alternate route.

Would not the SRT upgrading been similar to the 'test track' upgrading between Main and Stadium stations here? And the two curves, one under the railway and the other at Kennedy would not have been as much an issue, perhaps six months of work. Stations should not have needed much work. There wasn't anything done here.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

They aren't. It's bad reporting, not unlike the wrongly yet heavily-reported perception that TransLink here is inherently wasteful. The SRT is actually the TTC's single most reliable service. The TTC said so themselves.
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/20...of-scarborough-rt-is-shameful-james.html

So Toronto area politicians are determined to spend billions of dollars on a new system that isn't needed, while here in BC we can't rub two cents together to get desperately needed improvements.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

How come the TTC cars are "notoriously unreliable" while ours are seen as extremely reliable despite their much higher mileage and service hours?

I think it is a result of the SRT being the first trains after the prototypes were built, so Vancouver's cars were built after UTDC learned all the problems of ramping up the factory for production while making the SRT cars.

SRT was the orphan step-child of the Toronto transit system, since the original plan was for the SRT tracks to be an extension of the ALRV streetcar system. Ontario Premier had this as a 'make work project', so these MkI trains were ordered instead, and the stations and guideway was redesigned for the MkI cars. There are pictures on the web showing the stations built with low-level platforms for the ALRV low-floor cars, and the high-level platforms built over these to meet the UTDC car floor height.

SRT doesn't have a dedicated maintenance facility on the line, so the cars have to be trucked off-site for maintenance - resulting in excess costs and therefore minimal maintenance of the fleet.

Say what you want about Translink spending money on Skytrain, the trains are (mostly) properly maintained to have the original cars still running well after 30 years, and they are willing to refurb the original cars to keep them running for another 25+ years.

And TO has a bit harsher winter than Vancouver.
(A MONTH of daily high temps that are still below-zero ?)

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by st7860

Its kind of sad that unions get to decide that, not the people who own the system.

I don't think the union decided this, but rather the politicians &tc in charge needed to have the unions 'on board', so the sop was having a human in the front of an otherwise automated train.

[MIPS]

I think it is a result of the SRT being the first trains after the prototypes were built, so Vancouver's cars were built after UTDC learned all the problems of ramping up the factory for production while making the SRT cars.

According to Yaletown Production's old footage, trains were being assembled as far back as 1983 or very early 1984 for both Scarbourgh and Vancouver. In fact, right about now Vancouver would of been receiving another batch of trains from out east and given that we ordered a lot more than Toronto I would not be surprised if there was a parallel production line to manufacture our SkyTrains and their modified SRT's.

Image courtesy of Alan M.


Screengrab courtesy of Yaletown Productions.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

So Toronto area politicians are determined to spend billions of dollars on a new system that isn't needed, while here in BC we can't rub two cents together to get desperately needed improvements.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

And yet I have seem Toronto forum members say they are jealous at the fact that we have built and opened the Canada Line and are now constructing the Evergreen Line all within the last decade. While at the same time Toronto has started, stalled, and even stopped projects (wasting many millions) due to seemingly never ending flip flopping on technology choices all due to politics.

Grass is always greener I guess.

Oh well, I guess if we could have their money with our planning, then things would be moving.

[MIPS]

It isn't like the evergreen line was also not delayed for a decade due to politics and being indecisive on the technology. Hell, it has been planned for over 30 years.

[Metro-One]

Yes, but I am displaying a viewpoint that I have seen projected by more than a few Ontario forum members. Nearly all of the projects in Toronto have been delayed for years as well, with some very serious and expensive false starts that we have not seen (not to mention no equivalent for the SRT fiasco).

And to be honest, I am happy that at least one of the Evergreen Line delays occurred (the one where the LRT plan was scrapped).

In the end the Evergreen Line is about 10 years delayed. While it has been planned for 30 years, it was never planned to have been open for 30 years before today.

[officedweller]

FYI - article that TransLink purchased the form Bombardier facility adjacent to the Edmonds yard from Dayhu Investments.

http://www.vancouversun.com/TransLink+spends+million+Burnaby+transit+facility/10878042/story.html

[Mac Write]

So what will it be used for once all the Mark III's are running? Will they use it as a over-haul/major work facility, and use the main buildings for light/medium work and the remote OMC for light maintenance?

They also could pack a couple more trains on the side rails there (though that might be a safety issue with it being exposed).

Can't wait to here there long term plans for OMC 2.

Maybe for the assemble of the second order of 28 Mark III rolling stock, slated for service in 2018 (or is that just another 24-car wishlist purchase).

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by officedweller

FYI - article that TransLink purchased the form Bombardier facility adjacent to the Edmonds yard from Dayhu Investments.

http://www.vancouversun.com/TransLink+spends+million+Burnaby+transit+facility/10878042/story.html

Awesome! Correcting a shortsighted mistake. Sad it was such a waste of money but at least it's 'ours' for good now.

Mac Write: They'll use it to refurbish all the Mark I trains which will take a while, then presumably to maintain them. Nothing will change in the main OMC.
As far as I know the Evergreen Line facility is for train storage and little else.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

So Toronto area politicians are determined to spend billions of dollars on a new system that isn't needed, while here in BC we can't rub two cents together to get desperately needed improvements.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

I meant to post that just to higlight the mention of the TTC report saying the SRT has been their most reliable system, but I guess you could say that.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

Awesome! Correcting a shortsighted mistake. Sad it was such a waste of money but at least it's 'ours' for good now.

Until they sell it again, anyways..

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

Awesome! Correcting a shortsighted mistake. Sad it was such a waste of money but at least it's 'ours' for good now.

Ah yes...waste of money is Translink's main theme. It wouldn't surprise me if down the road, they repeat this same mistake.