Confederation Line West LRT Extension (Stage 2) [Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C - Page 11

c_speed3108 · #**201** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 4:12 PM**

I love the term "value engineering". It such a nice way to say, "find places to cheap out to save a few bucks"

1overcosc · #**202** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 4:13 PM**

From what I gather this is basically a simple cut and cover underneath the parkway.

I'm surprised no one thought of this before.

1overcosc · #**203** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 4:23 PM**

More details. Twitter chat from the reporters seems to say that the new alignment will see the parkway's median removed (still 4 lanes) to narrow its ROW by 38%. Also seems like the road will be straightened from Dominion to Cleary.

ortelius · #**204** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 4:24 PM**

details here http://documents.ottawa.ca/en/node/6334

Kitchissippi · #**205** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 4:32 PM**

Quote:

NCC and city also looked at "southern route" under Rochester and Byron linear park - would cost $1b.

versus $980 million? that means a mere $20 million is the difference between the possibility of having a station at Rochester Field where users can actually access buses and walk a straight line into Westboro Village instead of Dominion tucked into a low density residential street? Again, decisions made by people who don't take transit nor live in the area.

agl · #**206** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 4:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Why is "stacking" it under the parkway suddenly cheaper than running it directly under Richmond using cut-and-cover? Seems to me they're just re-inventing the terms for tunnelling.

I wonder if it's same cost as they'll be combining NCC and city budgets with the overlapping projects (ie. city would have had to include reconstruction of Richmond road in budget, whereas NCC may cover the cost with SJAM realignment).

agl · #**207** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 4:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

versus $980 million? that means a mere $20 million is the difference between the possibility of having a station at Rochester Field where users can actually access buses and walk a straight line into Westboro Village instead of Dominion tucked into a low density residential street? Again, decisions made by people who don't take transit nor live in the area.

They could still move the station to north end of Rochester Field , could they not? It could end up as a better street alignment with any new TOD to have easy access to Richmond Road and Westboro Village

1overcosc · #**208** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 4:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

versus $980 million? that means a mere $20 million is the difference between the possibility of having a station at Rochester Field where users can actually access buses and walk a straight line into Westboro Village instead of Dominion tucked into a low density residential street? Again, decisions made by people who don't take transit nor live in the area.

Blame the Westboro NIMBYs who rejected a route through their community. It's their own damn fault they won't have a station in their core.

Richard Eade · #**209** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 5:01 PM**

I gather that the main sewer and water lines are under Byron, with the laterals going under the Byron Linear Park and Richmond Road to the north side of Richmond. If the tunnel was under Richmond or the linear park, then there would be a lot of utilities to deal with. Putting the tunnel under the SJAM Parkway means only having to deal with a few storm water sewer crossings. Either way (under SJAM or Richmond), a cut & cover tunnel would be required so the deciding factor is probably the other expenses. It would be interesting to know if the pipes under Byron are scheduled to be replaced in the next 20 years, though.

I agree that it might be that the NCC will help cover the cost of re-aligning the parkway, so re-building the roadway atop the tunnel might be less costly if it is under the (subsidized) parkway vrs. Richmond Road (which the City alone would have to pay to re-build).

It is interesting that the City caved-in on the issue of the zoning of Rochester Field. The City wanted to buy it to maintain it as open land (or so they said), while the NCC wanted it zoned for development. Perhaps it is those development fees that will help the NCC cover part of the parkway re-alignment cost.

All-in-all this announcement is not really a good one for users of the transit system since the Dominion Station is still isolated and so will the new Cleary Station be.

eemy · #**210** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 5:03 PM**

Construction would also be a lot simpler, since they could build the new alignment for both the LRT and SJAM Parkway without shutting down traffic.

Kitchissippi · #**211** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 5:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Blame the Westboro NIMBYs who rejected a route through their community. It's their own damn fault they won't have a station in their core.

The NIMBYs opposed the open trench along the parkway but never an underground route under Richmond, plus all proposals have retained Dominion as is.

Richard Eade · #**212** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 5:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

Construction would also be a lot simpler, since they could build the new alignment for both the LRT and SJAM Parkway without shutting down traffic.

Unfortunately, there is overlap of the existing parkway and the re-aligned parkway; so there will need to be a shut-down for part of the time - and that includes the lanes that the buses use. The buses will, I expect, be temporarily (probably for two years) pushed out onto Richmond Road. That should make the home owners along Richmond and Byron happy.

(See the last page of this document for an idea of what is planned: http://www.ncc-ccn.gc.ca/sites/defau...g_group_en.pdf)

c_speed3108 · #**213** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 5:36 PM**

I am guessing a lot of the cost savings is that the tunnel contains no stations. Its just really basic shallow straight, running tunnel.

The thing could almost be built out of pre-fab cubs dropped in.

The confederation line is making realize just how much work tunnel stations area. Running tunnel is not nearly as much of an issue.

eternallyme · #**214** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 5:49 PM**

I still don't think the NIMBY's will like it too much...maybe best to move the route out of their community entirely? Such would be a lot more expensive though. One way to do it is a dedicated tax on homes in that community, so they - and only they - pay for the Cadillac costs.

rocketphish · #**215** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 5:51 PM**

Agreement reached to bury western LRT under parkway

OBJ Staff
Published on March 06, 2015

An agreement has been reached in principle to fully bury the western extension of the light rail project under the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway, the city announced Friday.

The agreement came after a 100-day review process completed by a working group comprised of three city councillors, four National Capital Commission board members, city manager Kent Kirkpatrick and NCC CEO Mark Kristmanson.

The working group believes its solution meets the NCC’s main conditions of unimpeded access to the Ottawa River shoreline and minimal impact on the surrounding landscape. The city’s demands of protecting the Byron Linear Park and the existing green space through Rochester Field from Richmond Road to the waterfront were also met, all while remaining within budget.

As part of the plan to bury the LRT under the parkway between the Dominion and Cleary stations, the city said a reconstructed parkway would have lanes closer together to maximize green space. It said there will be a park “of national significance," more pathway additions and enhancements, and 500,000 fewer bus trips a year.

The agreement will go before the full NCC board at its next meeting. The city is planning an open house on March 30 to allow public input, which will be considered as part of the ongoing environmental assessment process.

“This solution is an important part of the City’s Stage 2 LRT project, which will help us deliver reduced commute times, cleaner air and a stronger economy,” Mayor Jim Watson said in a statement.

http://www.obj.ca/Local/City-Hall/20...nder-parkway/1

rocketphish · #**216** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 5:52 PM**

NCC, City agree in principle to bury Western LRT extension

Matthew Pearson, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: March 6, 2015, Last Updated: March 6, 2015 12:24 PM EST

A National Capital Commission and City of Ottawa working group has reached an agreement in principle that would allow the city’s western light rail transit (WLRT) extension to be fully buried under the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway, the parties announced Friday.

The proposed solution addresses the NCC’s conditions and city’s financial concerns, while advancing the creation of a waterfront linear park, the parties said.

The solution was struck following a 100-day review process, led by a working group consisting of three city councillors, four NCC Board members, the city manager and the NCC’s CEO.

This group began meeting in December 2014, with the goal of finding a mutually satisfactory solution for the western extension of Confederation Line between the Dominion and Cleary stations.

The city and the NCC revealed the solution Friday at a joint news conference.

The NCC has said it supports the city’s western light-rail transit project, but the two sides have remained at odds over the 1.2-kilometre section of the proposed $980-million Richmond Underground line that would cross NCC land along the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway.

The city wants to run the line through a trench, 700 metres of which would be partly covered. But the NCC board declared in November that it would not approve the line unless it allowed unimpeded access to the Ottawa River shoreline and has a “minimal visual impact” on the parkway corridor landscape.

The city says it can’t afford a tunnel along the river, nor is it willing to support surface rail along Richmond Road or the Byron Linear Park.

Officials from both the city and NCC have been tight-lipped about developments on the file since Mayor Jim Watson and former foreign affairs minister John Baird met at the end of November and agreed to stop arguing about the matter publicly.

Baird has since resigned from his position and Nepean-Carleton MP Pierre Poilievre has been named the new minister responsible for the NCC.

[email protected]
twitter.com/mpearson78

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...awas-lrt-route

MoreTrains · #**217** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 6:19 PM**

Well, this still does not provide unimpeded access to the river...

And given the backlash against the possibility of running under Richmond, and Cleary station itself, perhaps the LRT should just go from Dominion straight to Lincoln Fields as the busses currently do. Then when the complaints roll in about not having access, the excuse would be that they didnt even want it in the first place.

Also I love the idea of the pre-fab inserts for under the SJAM. That would make the construction significantly quicker, more efficient and lessen road closure times. With inserts I could see the installation taking just over a week and pavement curing within two weeks.

But, I still disagree with the entire alignment from Tunneys on. There is only one chance to get things right, budget or not. And not running from Tunneys down to Richmond is a mistake in my mind.

Luker · #**218** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 6:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

Well, this still does not provide unimpeded access to the river...

And given the backlash against the possibility of running under Richmond, and Cleary station itself, perhaps the LRT should just go from Dominion straight to Lincoln Fields as the busses currently do. Then when the complaints roll in about not having access, the excuse would be that they didnt even want it in the first place.

Also I love the idea of the pre-fab inserts for under the SJAM. That would make the construction significantly quicker, more efficient and lessen road closure times. With inserts I could see the installation taking just over a week and pavement curing within two weeks.

But, I still disagree with the entire alignment from Tunneys on. There is only one chance to get things right, budget or not. And not running from Tunneys down to Richmond is a mistake in my mind.

Of course it is. It's a disaster of magnificent proportions... any twelve year old looking at an aerial map of Ottawa could tell you that the tracks/any rapid transit route for innew west Ottawa should run along Richmond/Byron or Carling for catchment let alone development opportunities.

The rest of the world's transportation & planning communities are laughing at us.

Duplicating services for $2.1 Billion + $6-10 Billion to complete to Orleans, Kanata and Barrhaven just to replicate the current service levels more or less? Yes the headway will be shorter, we will save on operation costs with reduced bus drivers... But all in all this whole F#$* process has been shortchanged and 'value engineered' starting with the lack of a station at Elgin/Confederation Park and continuing through the entire system design and fabrication. It's a sham. I hope Watson is happy when hes blown billions of dollars but has found enough saving to maintain his tax rate quota.

/end of rant.

silvergate · #**219** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 6:33 PM**

Would Cleary station even be possible if the train runs under the parkway?

Mikeed · #**220** Posted **Mar 6, 2015, 6:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

Well, this still does not provide unimpeded access to the river...

There are two new underpasses so apart from removing all transportation modes along the parkway I don't see how it can get better.

As an avid cyclist the best part of the parkway is where the paths and road diverge around Island Park - so seeing a substantial increase in separation of the road and the waterfront bikeway in one of the least enjoyable stretches is a nice sight.

This is a good plan. Yes, dominion is tucked away and I wish that rochester field was being planned as TOD development linking the riverfront park, the confederation line and richmond road together more but we have scarce resources to contend with.

Honestly, the only way I could see it being better is if we dropped Cleary and Dominion Station and created a new one at Rochester field.

http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/doc...ignment_en.pdf

Highlighted in pink is a trenched portion descending.