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  #961  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2015, 2:54 AM
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MIPS MIPS is offline
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What scares me is that they thought about that one long enough to release a card paper souvenir.


Image courtesy of ???

Image courtesy of ???

What if THOSE actually went into regular service?
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  #962  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2015, 1:21 AM
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Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
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I've been playing with this idea for a while, mostly since the Expo Line broke twice. A T shaped line connecting Downtown to the North Shore via Second Narrows, and a branch line looping back into Burnaby.

Green is on a guideway, red is tunneled.




Both photos are by myself

Positives:
- Mostly above grade
- Act as relief for the Expo line entering downtown and as backup in case of failure
- Act as relief for Metrotown Stn.
- Connect Brentwood and Metrotown directly
- Provide access to the Height, BCIT and Burnaby Hospital in Burnaby
- Make use of the 2nd Narrows Bridge to minimize the cost of the water crossings
- Provide rapid transit access to the DTES, Hastings Village, and PNE in Vancouver
- Provide access to Lonsdale and Phibbs Exchange in North Vancouver
- Uses mostly rail right of ways exiting downtown
- Relieves the 2nd Narrows Bridge of extra car traffic
- Allows North Shore access to the main population axis of region without having increasing traffic through Downtown

Cons:
- Not as fast as direct Lonsdale to Downtown connection
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  #963  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2015, 1:42 AM
gkz gkz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
I've been playing with this idea for a while, mostly since the Expo Line broke twice. A T shaped line connecting Downtown to the North Shore via Second Narrows, and a branch line looping back into Burnaby.

...
We have similar ideas about a Hastings Line: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zZS43UGKhDGo.kyJD1KKTdMd4 but using the second narrows bridge might make more sense regarding a North Shore line, I'll have to think about it
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  #964  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2015, 5:33 AM
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Large Cat Large Cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
I've been playing with this idea for a while, mostly since the Expo Line broke twice. A T shaped line connecting Downtown to the North Shore via Second Narrows, and a branch line looping back into Burnaby.

Green is on a guideway, red is tunneled.




Both photos are by myself

Positives:
- Mostly above grade
- Act as relief for the Expo line entering downtown and as backup in case of failure
- Act as relief for Metrotown Stn.
- Connect Brentwood and Metrotown directly
- Provide access to the Height, BCIT and Burnaby Hospital in Burnaby
- Make use of the 2nd Narrows Bridge to minimize the cost of the water crossings
- Provide rapid transit access to the DTES, Hastings Village, and PNE in Vancouver
- Provide access to Lonsdale and Phibbs Exchange in North Vancouver
- Uses mostly rail right of ways exiting downtown
- Relieves the 2nd Narrows Bridge of extra car traffic
- Allows North Shore access to the main population axis of region without having increasing traffic through Downtown

Cons:
- Not as fast as direct Lonsdale to Downtown connection
I'm loving it. This would even provide no-transfer access to downtown and Metropolis at Metrotown for all of the new condo-dwellers living around Brentwood Station. And I think it's important that any new lines be as above-grade as possible (while I understand the reasons for Broadway tunneling). A few questions on your plan:

-would there be a 50-50 split of frequency on both branches of the line, or would the N. Vancouver line be prioritized?

-what's your plan for station location, given you need to connect both BCIT and BGH to the line on Willingdon? I was thinking about this myself and I realized it might be hard to provide a quality pedestrian connection all the way to Willingdon from the hospital--it's a long and hilly sidewalk for seniors/disabled/injured! Also, BCIT's campus is really big...where would you put the station to maximize access for all students?

-kind of a luxury question, but do you think this would result in a reduction in SeaBus ridership? Would Skytrain from Lonsdale to downtown be faster than the SeaBus?
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  #965  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2015, 10:17 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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BC Transit (at the time) thought about a 2nd Narrows routing in the early 1990s (and a Boundary Rd route).

Your route seems feasible (but I can't see TransLink serving Burnaby with any more lines any time soon).

There could be a TBM extraction pit at the PNE (whether there would be a station) and east of that could be cut and cover then using the grade of the site to transition to elevated going north.
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  #966  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2015, 6:20 AM
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Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
BC Transit (at the time) thought about a 2nd Narrows routing in the early 1990s (and a Boundary Rd route).

Your route seems feasible (but I can't see TransLink serving Burnaby with any more lines any time soon).

There could be a TBM extraction pit at the PNE (whether there would be a station) and east of that could be cut and cover then using the grade of the site to transition to elevated going north.
The Burnaby part is more of a backup/relief to the current Expo line for downtown access and a relief for Metrotown Station. With another line heading east from downtown, any reliability problems wouldn't be as big of a deal. If something like this gets built in the 2030s the original segments on Terminal are going to be nearing 50 years of age. This would at least allow for some downtime on the Expo line if any major rehab works need to get done. Bus bridges may not cut it.

You wouldn't want to run the T-Line as an extension of Expo because a problem or delay would cause problems on all segments, but an interconnection could be really useful for contingency planning.

If Metrotown keeps growing quickly it may eventually need a second station that is closer than Patterson or Royal Oak to fox crowding issues.

In addition, I doubt the North Shore could figure out a location for an Operations and Maintenance centre, so having a more direct route back to home base wouldn't be a bad idea.

Re: LargeCat

For BGH, maybe run a travelator? I'd probably aim for Willingdon at Discovery Pl. as a BCIT station. That would allow room for a TBM launch pit to the South.

The Seabus would likely be cannibalized by any RRT service on the North Shore mostly due to the fact that people will live nearer to the stations. Who knows how many people would live within walking distance of the Seabus by then though.

For service splits, who knows? You would have to see how much Metrotown grows in the meantime.
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  #967  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2015, 8:16 AM
Kisai Kisai is offline
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Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
You wouldn't want to run the T-Line as an extension of Expo because a problem or delay would cause problems on all segments, but an interconnection could be really useful for contingency planning.

If Metrotown keeps growing quickly it may eventually need a second station that is closer than Patterson or Royal Oak to fox crowding issues.
Patterson and Royal Oak are less than a 20 minute walk from Metrotown station, hence why a shuttle from it for the handicapped works fine, and bikes weren't allowed at Metrotown station.

I'll certainly agree that some kind of North-South connection is necessary in Burnaby, but I think it would have to go down Boundary road and meet at the non-existing BCTel station (There originally was supposed to be a station near the building, but given that Joyce is less than a 20 minute walk from it, probably silly.) The problem with a North-South connection is that there's not much on the line to make it worth doing except the anchor points. The road with stuff on it would actually be Willingdon (Which has BCIT on it) which is what you have in your map.

So something like Second Narrows -> Hastings -> Willingdon -> Brentwood ->BCIT->Metrotown does make sense.

I think it would be reasonable to have a switch at every crossing point that would allow interlining/rolling-stock load balancing. But had this been thought of with the Millennium line extension, there would have been a switch at Broadway as well. I guess we will find out how well interlining works when the Evergreen extension starts operating.
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  #968  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2015, 11:53 PM
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The transit traffic between Brentwood and Metrotown is surprisingly low. At peak the 130 bus runs at 7.5 minute intervals. I don't think there are any other routes coming from north and central Burnaby. Willingdon is set up nicely though for some kind of rapid transit. There's room to widen Willingdon from Hastings to Moscrop. Rezone the last stretch of detached homes to complete the route. BRT seems the most appropriate mode for Willingdon.

I don't think it will be long before there will be another expansion of Metrotown station at the rate the area is growing. I haven't been able to find up to date population numbers for Metrotown, but it;s gotta be well over 30 000 by now. There's a good chance Metrotown's density will match that of the West End in 10 or 15 years. With the old bus loop available for redevelopment, we'll probably see a Spanish Solution boarding system set up at that point.
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  #969  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2015, 12:13 AM
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Burnaby bus routes aren't set up in anything resembling a grid-like manner. Other than the 130 on Willingdon, the only other real north - south route is the western half of the 129. The 110 is a more common style of route. The 116 south of Metrotown with the overlap of the C6 and slightly the C7 is headache inducing.
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  #970  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2015, 10:09 AM
gkz gkz is offline
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I've been thinking about a North Shore rapid transit line, and I think I've come up with a solution:

Replace one of the Lions Gate's vehicle lanes with a single Skytrain track, with alternating directions!

The North Shore desperately needs rapid transit - it suffers from horrible traffic problems.

Tunnelling or bridging a new line over the Burrard Inlet is a very expensive proposition - an existing crossing must be used for rapid transit to be feasible. The Second Narrows alignment is not ideal due to its distance from downtown.

An alignment over the Lions Gate bridge would be the best - however, the bridge cannot support more weight - it cannot add another deck to support rapid transit.

Solution: replace one of the existing vehicle lanes with a single track Skytrain line. This should keep things within the weight allowed, cost much less then building a new crossing, and reduce vehicle traffic (which the City of Vancouver wants) while simultaneously creating an attractive alternative.


Would a single track over the bridge work?

The span, including the South, Central, and North spans is 847m. (a separate two track guide-way could be built next to the viaduct portion).



The Bombardier Innovia Metro 300 (the newest Skytrain car being bought for the Evergreen line) has a top speed of 100km/h. Let's assume it will not be travelling at that top speed.

847m
at 60km/h = 51s
at 70km/h = 44s
at 80km/h = 38s

Let's assume 60km/h, and add a 10s buffer. That means the crossing is passable in 1m in each direction, in other words supporting a 2 minute headway (every two minutes, both directions can cross)! Even with more buffer room or slower speeds, this is still more frequent than most of the system's other lines.

How it would work:

Thankfully the Skytrain system is automated - this would be difficult with a human driver.
Simply, the system would be timed so that only one train in one direction uses the single track portion at a time. First, a train would travel north across the single track, and then go back on the double track guide-way next to the viaduct. At this time (after a safety buffer time), a south-bound train would enter the single track, and then exit south of the bridge onto a two track guide-way.


Would it be able to fit?

The current lane widths are 3.6m



The Bombardier Innovia Metro 300 is 2.65m wide



If 3.6m is not enough, the other lanes could be narrowed down to 3m (their original width was 2.9m) for a maximum total right of way of 4.8m.


Would it be too heavy?

One Bombardier car weighs 20,500kg. Compare to one 60 foot bus that Translink currently uses at 19,000kg. Currently, one lane of the bridge could be entirely filled with motor vehicles, totalling in the hundreds of thousands of kilograms - while in our case, only a single train with 2 to 4 cars would be on the "lane" at a time.


Why this alignment?

Here is a concept alignment:


(explore further: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zZS43UGKhDGo.kyJD1KKTdMd4)

The North Shore rapid transit project could directly connect Downtown with Coal Harbour (and the undeserved West End), Stanley Park and the Aquarium, with North Shore destinations such as Park Royal (and the Park Royal bus exchange), Capilano Mall, and Lonsdale (and the Lonsdale bus loop). Park Royal could house a park and ride for commuters throughout the area.


Construction downtime?

The time between the closure of the third vehicle travel lane, and the opening of the rapid transit line, will be critical for traffic. Thus, it would make sense to do this part last, so that as soon as it is completed the entire line can open.

Last edited by gkz; Feb 27, 2015 at 7:26 AM.
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  #971  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2015, 6:54 PM
Kisai Kisai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkz View Post

Would it be too heavy?

One Bombardier car weighs 20,500kg. Compare to one 60 foot bus that Translink currently uses at 19,000kg. Currently, one lane of the bridge could be entirely filled with motor vehicles, totalling in the hundreds of thousands of kilograms - while in our case, only a single train with 2 to 4 cars would be on the "lane" at a time.
Putting aside for a minute how old the bridge is and what was already done to it to retrofit a new road deck, I think the best option would be to just shut down road traffic to it and run only the lighter Skytrain cars on it instead of trying to keep vehicle traffic on it. This would of course suggest replacing the other crossing with a an additional 4 lanes.

However realistically speaking, the Skytrain would never be able to be run on the Lions Gate since it would require replacing the road deck again to have rails.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk2/tape15/PQDD_0019/MQ37484.pdf

Quote:
THE CHOICE OF ALTERNATIVES IN THE
REPLACEMENT OF THE LION'S GATE BRIDGE
...



. For this study,
eight alternatives were whittled down from twenty-one proposals and were selected for evaluation. These include: 1) repair and maintain the bridge (do-nothing option), 2) rehabilirate and widen the bridge with three wider lanes, 3) modify the bridge to four lanes, 4) a new fourlane bridge, 5) a new five or six-lane bridge, 6) a four-Lane bored tunnel, 7) a Brockton Point tunnel, and 8) a mid-harbour tunnel (as a third crossing).

...

The sixth bridge option involved widening the Second
Narrows Bridge and eliminating traffic on Lion's Gate.

...

3) Modify the existing bridge to four or more Lanes
In this option the existing suspension cables will be replaced with cable stays or new suspension cables; the stiffening trusses and deck will be replaced and the towers will be strengthened and heightened. If five or six lanes are required, a second deck will be added.
So apparently double-decking the bridge was in the list of options.
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  #972  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2015, 10:59 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Yes, a 6 lane rehab to the bridge using a double deck was a possibility
- it would have required vertical additions to the towers to take the extra load.
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  #973  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2015, 12:01 AM
gkz gkz is offline
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Of course if the bridge is expensively upgraded to allow for a double deck, then Skytrain tracks could run on that deck without issue.

The point I am making is that it might be possible, with the careful engineering, to convert one of the existing vehicle lanes into a single Skytrain track, and not increase the weight as to require an expensive upgrade of the entire support structure.

Then, if this is possible, I make the point that such a single track over the 847m span should not be an impediment to frequent Skytrain service over the bridge.
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  #974  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2015, 12:08 AM
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a mid-harbour crossing would be a good idea i think. you could run 6 lanes of traffic, extend expo-line with a station at Main+Hastings and then run it through the tunnel with the car traffic to the north shore. then the Lions Gate Bridge could be turned into 2 lanes, buses and emergency vehicles only. removing cars from Stanley Park and doubling the amount of pedestrian and bicycle space.

making the tunnel with 4 tunnel boring machines would be what i think could work. 2 larger ones for the 3 lanes of traffic each way, and 2 smaller ones for each direction of SkyTrain lines.
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  #975  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2015, 1:40 AM
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Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
a mid-harbour crossing would be a good idea i think. you could run 6 lanes of traffic, extend expo-line with a station at Main+Hastings and then run it through the tunnel with the car traffic to the north shore. then the Lions Gate Bridge could be turned into 2 lanes, buses and emergency vehicles only. removing cars from Stanley Park and doubling the amount of pedestrian and bicycle space.

making the tunnel with 4 tunnel boring machines would be what i think could work. 2 larger ones for the 3 lanes of traffic each way, and 2 smaller ones for each direction of SkyTrain lines.
All of the money.
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  #976  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2015, 2:13 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
a mid-harbour crossing would be a good idea i think. you could run 6 lanes of traffic, extend expo-line with a station at Main+Hastings and then run it through the tunnel with the car traffic to the north shore. then the Lions Gate Bridge could be turned into 2 lanes, buses and emergency vehicles only. removing cars from Stanley Park and doubling the amount of pedestrian and bicycle space.

making the tunnel with 4 tunnel boring machines would be what i think could work. 2 larger ones for the 3 lanes of traffic each way, and 2 smaller ones for each direction of SkyTrain lines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
All of the money.
Ottawa coughed up some $700 million for 2 Toronto Spadina subway stations.

Are we not eleigible for funding assistance, too? (though I will admit it would be a huge $$$ megaproject, but I like this concept the best so far)
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  #977  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2015, 2:44 AM
Chikinlittle Chikinlittle is offline
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Quite impressed with this prospect actually. Sure we all would love to see tunnels and new construction, but the ability to actually build something to the north shore with budget-conscious methodology, it's definitely well-thought out.

What if we were to extend the thought of this across the second narrows as well (remove one lane of vehicle traffic each direction though to give us double-tracking) and essentially have a north shore loop of sorts?

I'm sure motorist would be up in arms with either/both of those ideas, but we need to give people better transit alternatives across Burrard Inlet and this is definitely a much more affordable way of doing it.

[QUOTE=gkz;6929428]I've been thinking about a North Shore rapid transit line, and I think I've come up with a solution:

Replace one of the Lions Gate's vehicle lanes with a single Skytrain track, with alternating directions!
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  #978  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2015, 3:18 AM
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any ideas on where the Expo-Line extension on the North-Shore should terminate?

also, any ideas on where the car tunnel should connect. i thought extend it and connect with with the Upper-Levels-Highway. leave it all tunneled.

and money wise, this is a fantasy thread we can always dream one day there would e enough money to do something grand.
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  #979  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2015, 3:29 AM
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An idea I had for a Skytrain route that would be a 'Hastings Line' starting at Waterfront, following the rail tracks with a stop at Main and then Glen Drive, and then drop down to Hastings with stops at Victoria, Renfrew*, Kootenay, Willingdon, Holdom, and Cliff Ave. After that I'm sure it would have to switch to bus or gondola to make it up Burnaby Mountain to SFU.

I marked Renfrew as I would have a spur come off there and follow the bridge to Phibbs Exchange. I don't know North Van well enough to plan a route beyond that.

My ideal would be to have stops about every 1.5k. Putting them closer together doesn't give the train much time to get up to speed and slows down the whole route. People can always step off at the stop closest to them and transfer to a bus for the last bit of their trip - it doesn't need to be door to door Skytrain service.
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  #980  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2015, 3:26 AM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIPS View Post
What scares me is that they thought about that one long enough to release a card paper souvenir.


Image courtesy of ???

Image courtesy of ???

What if THOSE actually went into regular service?
It appears there were several distinct MkII prototypes built.

The one in the photo on the SkyBridge showing 3 doors per side with a large window between each door set.

The other showing the prototype at the OMC seems to have 2 doors per side with 3 large windows between the door sets, and the doors operate as 'pocket doors'. It appears this prototype is now at the Squamish Train Museum.

I suspect one issue is the stretched MkI design for these MkII prototypes had problems getting around curves built for the married-pair two car MkI regular-sized trains.

The MkII cars were redesigned with the connecting tunnel between two cars, with the cars slightly longer than MkI cars but still able to get around the tightest track corners.

You can find out about the problems with Scarborough RT when their premier changed the trains from streetcars to ALRT MkI cars after the tracks and guideways were under construction.

Last edited by jsbertram; Mar 1, 2015 at 3:40 AM.
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