New Arena for Downtown Edmonton

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Still don't think we quite grasp what this 2-3 block change will have on our downtown and city.

This is why the whole debate around it is moot, this is very much a game changer for Edmonton and will set the bar for how this type of development is done for any new arena on the continent.

[Coldrsx]

^correct.

[Hallsy's Toupee]

Went by the Stantec/Delta pit, just saw an excavator push a dump truck up the ramp!

[Socguy]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Oh Calgary

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/02/17/jesse-kline-hows-that-new-rink-working-out-edmonton/

Isn't this the same rag that just lost a defamation lawsuit because their opinions got a little too make-believey?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/climat...ion-suit-against-national-post-1.2950286

[mcc16]

can I just point out that I called it in my previous post... so predictable. This is exactly the attitude I knew many edmontonians would take... " how dare we pay for his arena and then he increases the prices on us!"

Hopefully once it is open and we are winning some games and checking out amazing concerts in our city core everyone will forget all this. Yes Katz may have got away with a disgustingly good deal that many are bitter about...but whats done is done. move one and learn from in while enjoying a more vibrant downtown.

[speedog]

I'm just kind of jealous that Edmonton is getting such a great new facility while Calgary just continues to plod along with teasers once in a blue moon - most likely the arena/stadium replacement funding model will be quite different in Calgary as the scenarios Edmonton was dealing with are much different then Calgary currently has or most likely have in the future.

[hilman]

Originally Posted by mcc16

can I just point out that I called it in my previous post... so predictable. This is exactly the attitude I knew many edmontonians would take... " how dare we pay for his arena and then he increases the prices on us!"

Hopefully once it is open and we are winning some games and checking out amazing concerts in our city core everyone will forget all this. Yes Katz may have got away with a disgustingly good deal that many are bitter about...but whats done is done. move one and learn from in while enjoying a more vibrant downtown.

Was it really that disgustingly good of a deal?

Arena $480 million
Katz $130 million
Ticket Tax (paid by users) $125 million
COE $200 million
Other levels of government $25 million (for second ice surface/community rink)

The $200 million from the City is paid for by extra parking revenue and the CRL in place for that district which is expected to make over $573 million in new taxes over the next 20 years.

Right now there is over $2.5 billion in construction in the arena district as the result of Katz and company and much more to come. Let's not forget that this keeps the Oilers here for 35 years and Katz will be paying for all operating and maintenance costs as well.

Looks like a win-win for all parties involved to me.

[mcc16]

Katz "100 million contribution" is essentiall rent... and 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 rent at that. not only is this rent minimal over a thirty five year period, the city then had the nerve to pay 2 million a year in marketing costs to him with pretty much offsets the small amount he was already paying. I may be a very small scale landlord, but when in a private company would you EVER have someone build a building then gift that building to someone else at much below market lease and then pay your tenant to co brand/market yourself in the building you own...

I tried to read through all of the documents related to the deal but it seems like quite a bit of info is omitted. I may be wrong but I believe the max tax payable to the city was 375000 a year... you do the math of the city taking in a 35 year lease on 100 million and 375000 in taxes on a 480 million dollar building. Pretty sure your not going to make that cap rate work... I know this is overly simplified because of huge amounts of taxes taken in by the district...but it COULD HAVE been a better deal that still would have had the same district benefits.

edit= sorry, I guess the 125 million ticket tax could be excluded from total cost of the building...

[hilman]

The arena is owned by the City so the minimal taxes made on that part of land isn't as important as the massive tax injection the the new buildings in the district will generate.

These parking lots have been there forever and were generating squat in terms of taxes, now with the arena being built, developers are clamoring to get close to the action and build massive projects. Brad Lamb, Rise, etc would not have even given our downtown a second look but now they are going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to build new high rises. This catalyst was exactly what downtown needed to kick the revitalization into overdrive and I am confident the city will recoup their $200 million investment in less time than previously thought.

Let's not forget how barren this land has been for many many years:



Now picture this angle in a few short years:


Taken from http://www.rogersplace.com/time-lapse/

[Coldrsx]

Hilman hitting it out of the park!

[mcc16]

^^and every single thing you mentioned could have still been accomplished with a deal that was fair to the city. if I own a building and you want to use it, then pay. The 2 million was the last slap in the face for me. I will be there opening night (if my parents want to give up one of their tickets lol) And I obviously agree that this will be transformative for downtown and could possibly be a huge image boost for edmonton to the rest of Canada. However, the deal was 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 and just highlights everything that is wrong with corporate America. The city was bullied.

I know it is stupid to keep bemoaning the fact that the deal was garbage, but it would be nice if people could acknowledge that you can have a 🞵🞵🞵🞵 deal with lots of benefits.

It's like buying house and then the neighbour telling you, " I'm surprised it sold for that much, they told us that they would have let it go for 20000 less then that!" It doesn't mean you like the house any less and it doesn't mean that all the benefits of the house are still the same...but your out 20k and got a 🞵🞵🞵🞵 deal...

[GreenSPACE]

^the 'deal' was very much the art of the possible. It's not ideal, it effects our borrowing capacity as a city for a bit, but in the end it will pay for itself. There's not very many large infrastructure projects that can say that - certainly not the LRT or overpasses or roads in general. Not everyone will go to hockey games, but the other 200 days of the year it will be used for a whole host of events and activities. The spin off development and other items the CRL will be paying for including various parks and downtown upgrades will be enjoyed by all Edmontonians. Those would NOT be paid for by a suburban-focused council any other way. It was very much a package deal.

So, yes, hindsight is 20-20. But it doesn't mean there was a better or more politically possible deal to be had. What we had was an opportunity directed by elected officials and Katz Group, with some input by citizens and the business community. That's the way politics works.

[Socguy]

How much do you believe the city should charge Katz in rent?

[EdmTrekker]

Hillman since you brought up the $25M from other levels of government - can you provide a weblink to the news release from the GoA and GoC informing of their contribution please.

[hilman]

Originally Posted by EdmTrekker

Hillman since you brought up the $25M from other levels of government - can you provide a weblink to the news release from the GoA and GoC informing of their contribution please.

Looks like it is $25 million over 3 years from the Regional Collaboration Program Allocation as per:

http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/documents/PDF/Downtown_Arena_Financial_Framework_Details.pdf

This is taken from:
http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/projects_redevelopment/the-agreement.aspx

Funding Model Summary:
http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/projects_redevelopment/arena-funding-model.aspx


Just to clarify, this money has nothing to do with the Community Rink (that is a separate $21 million), I hope that helps.

[GreenSPACE]

Main floor glazing being replaced with clear glazing on the Arena District showroom at 104 St/103Ave (former Brookfield office).

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by GreenSPACE

Main floor glazing being replaced with clear glazing on the Arena District showroom at 104 St/103Ave (former Brookfield office).

That's the presentation centre. Should be open in another month or 2. Interior is quite far along.

[Mikemike]

It was clear glazing before, when it was the Aurora Sales centre. They had a pretty cool city model in there.

[CMD UW]

Originally Posted by GreenSPACE

^the 'deal' was very much the art of the possible. It's not ideal, it effects our borrowing capacity as a city for a bit, but in the end it will pay for itself. There's not very many large infrastructure projects that can say that - certainly not the LRT or overpasses or roads in general. Not everyone will go to hockey games, but the other 200 days of the year it will be used for a whole host of events and activities. The spin off development and other items the CRL will be paying for including various parks and downtown upgrades will be enjoyed by all Edmontonians. Those would NOT be paid for by a suburban-focused council any other way. It was very much a package deal.

So, yes, hindsight is 20-20. But it doesn't mean there was a better or more politically possible deal to be had. What we had was an opportunity directed by elected officials and Katz Group, with some input by citizens and the business community. That's the way politics works.

Put it this way. There is no way all 800,000 'shareholders' would ever agree to a deal. No matter what. There are too many perspectives to achieve 100% consensus. This is why shareholders elect 'representatives' to make these types of decisions on their behalf. Some will agree and some won't. The deal is done and you live on. mcc16 is just one shareholder.

[GreenSPACE]

Originally Posted by Mikemike

It was clear glazing before, when it was the Aurora Sales centre. They had a pretty cool city model in there.

Are you sure? The glazing it's replacing looks brown tinted.