Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[eemy]

In order to embed a youtube video, just put the code for the video (the part after the backslash) between the tags. Like this:

[youtube]agHhVKP1F6c[/youtube]

Producing the following:

• Video Link

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

In order to embed a youtube video, just put the code for the video (the part after the backslash) between the tags.

Cool! Thanks Jeremy

[1overcosc]

Ottawa's version of the Citadis is a customized variant called the Citadis Spirit that, at least at first, will be completely unique to Ottawa. Will be fairly similar to the Citadis 302, but not quite the same.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Ottawa's version of the Citadis is a customized variant called the Citadis Spirit that, at least at first, will be completely unique to Ottawa. Will be fairly similar to the Citadis 302, but not quite the same.

Ok. This Madrid metro line is the only one I could find using the Citadis partly underground, although it doesn't appear to be grade separated above ground.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

Ok. This Madrid metro line is the only one I could find using the Citadis partly underground, although it doesn't appear to be grade separated above ground.

I believe Ottawa is the first city to use the Alstom Citadis as a metro-style service. The Spirit version we're getting is specially engineered to have higher speeds and be compatable with ATC (automation), in light of this fact.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I believe Ottawa is the first city to use the Alstom Citadis as a metro-style service. The Spirit version we're getting is specially engineered to have higher speeds and be compatable with ATC (automation), in light of this fact.

I know this has been asked before, but why was automation not considered (or maybe considered and rejected) right from the beginning?

Given the increasing prevalence of automated trains globally... and considering it's fully grade separated with no switching at all... why not??

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

I know this has been asked before, but why was automation not considered (or maybe considered and rejected) right from the beginning?

Given the increasing prevalence of automated trains globally... and considering it's fully grade separated with no switching at all... why not??

I think they decide against automation to preserve the possibility of at grade crossing in future phases (think original plan to build tracks on what is currently the east bound ORP). Though it now seems that the complete system will be fully grade separated.

[McC]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

Ok. This Madrid metro line is the only one I could find using the Citadis partly underground, although it doesn't appear to be grade separated above ground.

The Rouen Metro uses a predecessor to the Citadis in a similar setup, with a tunnel under the old city centre.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

I know this has been asked before, but why was automation not considered (or maybe considered and rejected) right from the beginning?

Given the increasing prevalence of automated trains globally... and considering it's fully grade separated with no switching at all... why not??

The trains will be semi-automated on day one; the deceleration into stations will be automatic to ensure energy savings and exact alignment of trains at the platforms--this is important because on day 1 the trains will 'overhang' the platform on the non-tunnel stations (96m train on 90m platform).

I believe the system can go down to 2min headways without automation, 90-100s with.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The trains will be semi-automated on day one; the deceleration into stations will be automatic to ensure energy savings and exact alignment of trains at the platforms--this is important because on day 1 the trains will 'overhang' the platform on the non-tunnel stations (96m train on 90m platform).

I believe the system can go down to 2min headways without automation, 90-100s with.

Trillium line drivers do this daily. I've had friends comment that they thought the Talents were automated since the drivers are usually +- 2 inches of the platform extenders centre.

[Kitchissippi]

There are different Grades of Automation (GoA) and Ottawa's LRT is supposed to be GoA2 or capable of Semi-automatic Train Operation (STO) mode. This means that "trains run automatically from station to station but a driver is in the cab, with responsibility for door closing, obstacle detection on the track in front of the train and handling of emergency situations."

Most fully automated transit systems (GoA4) require not only grade separation but also access controlled routes — tunnels, elevated track or completely fenced off ROWs. some newer ones tend to have platform barrier doors at the stations to ensure safety.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

There are different Grades of Automation (GoA) and Ottawa's LRT is supposed to be GoA2 or capable of Semi-automatic Train Operation (STO) mode. This means that "trains run automatically from station to station but a driver is in the cab, with responsibility for door closing, obstacle detection on the track in front of the train and handling of emergency situations."

Most fully automated transit systems (GoA4) require not only grade separation but also access controlled routes — tunnels, elevated track or completely fenced off ROWs. some newer ones tend to have platform barrier doors at the stations to ensure safety.

Advancements in AI technology mean that requirement will likely be eliminated within 20 years at the most. It's probably already not technologically necessary.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Advancements in AI technology mean that requirement will likely be eliminated within 20 years at the most. It's probably already not technologically necessary.

I still would prefer having a driver on board. I don't see a point in dehumanizing everything and eliminating employment everywhere just because it's possible. Then again I'm one of those people who avoids the self-checkout at the supermarket simply because it takes away jobs — why should I do the work and make it more efficient for Loblaws to make money? In the end there has got to be work for the broad spectrum of society, we can't all be lawyers and salesmen.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I still would prefer having a driver on board. I don't see a point in dehumanizing everything and eliminating employment everywhere just because it's possible. Then again I'm one of those people who avoids the self-checkout at the supermarket simply because it takes away jobs — why should I do the work and make it more efficient for Loblaws to make money? In the end there has got to be work for the broad spectrum of society, we can't all be lawyers and salesmen.

I meant the requirement that a track be tunnelled, elevated, or fenced off to be fully automated, is likely to be removed: in the future, tracks running at grade without heavy fencing could easily be automated--heck 20 years from now motor vehicles in standard mixed traffic could be automated.

As for self-checkouts, to say they take away jobs is actually false. They still need cashiers to help people out and to check for stealing, generally requiring 1/4 the number of cashiers as before. And those 3/4 jobs lost are offset by the work required by engineers, factory workers, and computer scientists to design, build, program, and test these machines. In fact, you're actually making things better because you're replacing low-paying jobs (cashiers) with high-paying jobs (engineers).

[Kitchissippi]

Not everyone is capable of becoming an engineer, in fact very few are capable of becoming good at it. Western society often scoffs at "low paying jobs" but that's how we became a prosperous society in the middle of the last century, when there was gainful employment for almost everyone from the smartest to the almost stupid, creating a broad base of consumers and taxpayers. I know, off-topic.

I'm not against automated transit either, but if there is any possibility people or animals running into the track or people getting caught in the doors, I'd like a person in charge of the train who can override the system on the spot.

[1overcosc]

With respect to automation of the Confederation Line, I think it's prudent for the city to hold off on automation for now. Ridership isn't projected to even approach the point where it requires automation through to the end of the current planning horizon (2031), so it would be a needless expense at the moment, especially because the only additional financial benefit aside from capacity--efficient braking--is already being realized through the initial semi-automation. All that's necessary is to rough it in, which is what the city is doing.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Not everyone is capable of becoming an engineer, in fact very few are capable of becoming good at it. Western society often scoffs at "low paying jobs" but that's how we became a prosperous society in the middle of the last century, when there was gainful employment for almost everyone from the smartest to the almost stupid, creating a broad base of consumers and taxpayers. I know, off-topic.

I'm not against automated transit either, but if there is any possibility people or animals running into the track or people getting caught in the doors, I'd like a person in charge of the train who can override the system on the spot.

Education is way better now then it was 150 years ago, it's easier for people of any background to get access to these higher paying jobs. But ya, I see your point, we risk losing employability for the less intelligent/disabled/new-immigrant, etc.

As for your second point, it is quite possible for computers to detect a person/animal going on the track and to stop the system right then & there. Visual recognition technology good enough to do this accurately is still being developed but it should be here soon. This is actually one area where a computer system would be a huge safety improvement, as a computer would be able to react far faster than a human could. And for all the talk about computer glitches, for things that AI can do well (and yes, that is only a very small subset of what humans can do!), the chance of a glitch is far lower than the chance of a human error. The on-board computer is statistically a lot less likely to crash than the driver is to fall asleep at the wheel.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I still would prefer having a driver on board. I don't see a point in dehumanizing everything and eliminating employment everywhere just because it's possible. Then again I'm one of those people who avoids the self-checkout at the supermarket simply because it takes away jobs — why should I do the work and make it more efficient for Loblaws to make money? In the end there has got to be work for the broad spectrum of society, we can't all be lawyers and salesmen.

I would think that there will always be a human on board, to keep the riding public happy. London's DLR is fully automated, the only job for the train attendant is to close the doors when ready to depart. That system also lacks platform edge doors.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Catenary

I would think that there will always be a human on board, to keep the riding public happy. London's DLR is fully automated, the only job for the train attendant is to close the doors when ready to depart. That system also lacks platform edge doors.

The SkyTrain in Vancouver is completely humanless, IIRC. No staff or driver of any kind on trains or in stations.

The Scarborough RT in Toronto is fully automated, everything including the doors. Yet the union forced the city to keep a human on board the train... a driver getting paid to literally sit and do nothing all day

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The SkyTrain in Vancouver is completely humanless, IIRC. No staff or driver of any kind on trains or in stations.

The Scarborough RT in Toronto is fully automated, everything including the doors. Yet the union forced the city to keep a human on board the train... a driver getting paid to literally sit and do nothing all day

I know a former SRT driver, apparently it's far from automated anymore. It does have a cab at the front unlike London's system, where the door controls are at each door.