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  #11381  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2015, 10:18 PM
GeneW GeneW is offline
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Originally Posted by Evergrey View Post
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Implementation of high-end improvements could make the rail trip time from Pittsburgh to Harrisburg approximately four and a half hours on a 244-mile corridor. The rail trip currently takes about five and a half hours.
Um, What? $1.5B to cut an hour off the ride? In what universe is an average speed of 54 MPH, "High Speed"?
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  #11382  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2015, 11:56 PM
daviderik daviderik is offline
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Um, What? $1.5B to cut an hour off the ride? In what universe is an average speed of 54 MPH, "High Speed"?
Amen, I thought I was the only one seeing this

In other news. At the end of the new casino hotel article
http://www.post-gazette.com/business/dev...hotel-possibilities/stories/201502130085
mentions this:
Quote:
• Ninety days of exclusive negotiations with Shadyside developer Walnut Capital over a proposal to build 352 market rate apartments over two phases on a 4-acre tract of land at Pittsburgh Technology Center in Oakland. Walnut Capital is expected to pay $1.4 million for the land.

Two Oakland residents with homes on the bluff overlooking the site expressed concern at the meeting that the two six-story buildings planned as part of the development would block their views of the Monongahela River. But Todd Reidbord, Walnut Capital president, said the firm’s preliminary studies indicated the project would have no impact on those views.
NIMBY? Aghh I hate people.
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  #11383  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 2:35 AM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by photoLith View Post
I dont believe Pittsburgh will ever see that come to fruition.
You never know. The technology has taken off in South America and Europe, and there really isn't a better city to try it out in the United States.
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  #11384  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 4:04 AM
Minivan Werner Minivan Werner is offline
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Reading about all the crap that went on when Portland built 1 short aerial tram line, I don't see something like that ever flying on an even larger scale here in Pittsburgh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Aerial_Tram#Community_response
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  #11385  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 7:15 AM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by Minivan Werner View Post
Reading about all the crap that went on when Portland built 1 short aerial tram line, I don't see something like that ever flying on an even larger scale here in Pittsburgh.
So that is a different technology, both more expensive per mile and far less useful (since it involves longer wait times, lower capacities, and can only serve the two stations). And in Portland they made it even more expensive with a variety of design choices and such. If you look at a lot of the objections, they are being based at least in part on a combination of its expense and the perception it only benefited a very limited community associated with OHSU.

Of course there will always be NIMBYs (or I guess NOMBYs) no matter what you are doing, but I understand that generally multi-station aerial gondola routes have been very well-received in the South American cities where they have been tried at significant scale, so much so that the bigger problem for local politicians is communities complaining they have been left out. And that is because the transportation benefit is very large, and often they serve communities that otherwise would never get dedicated transit infrastructure for cost reasons.

All that said, it would likely be smart to start with routes that did little if any overflight of SFHs. I believe the "people could look into my backyard!" thing is more a problem in imagination than practice (in most dense urban residential areas, most people's backyards can already be looked into by surrounding buildings and often cars and walkers and such, and most people don't really care about that in practice), but you might still want to sidestep that issue until the benefits of the technology are made more concrete in the minds of local communities.

I'd suggest something like a line through Oakland, the PTC, and over to South Side Works might be a good route to start with. Direct SFH overflight could be minimized (maybe none at all), and if you really could deliver a river-crossing for cheap, that could be an eye-opener for a lot of people. The potential downside, though, is that you would fall back into the problem of this seeming like a route designed to benefit mostly just the university-related communities, so you might also look at either continuing it up through the Hill and back down to Downtown, or up through the South Side Slopes and then over to South Hills Junction, or both, which would greatly expand and diversify the pool of beneficiaries. And in fact that was the original proposal in the post Adam Shuck linked.
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  #11386  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 7:43 AM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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There is an interesting discussion in this article about the possible Rivers-related hotel about whether a casino alone is enough to generate demand:

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/bl...dering-new-hotel-in-a-boom.html?page=all

I tend to agree it probably isn't, but at the same time I think if you are talking about that location without talking about the Downtown views and nearby T Station, you are missing an awful lot. That said, I don't disagree with the conclusion that bigger would be better, enough so that the hotel could host functions and conferences and such independently from the casino.
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  #11387  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 12:51 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Bike trail helps attract Aero Tech Designs to Chateau (from Coraopolis):

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/bl...s-to-grow-into-a-100-staff.html?page=all
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  #11388  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 2:30 PM
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Austinlee Austinlee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minivan Werner View Post
Reading about all the crap that went on when Portland built 1 short aerial tram line, I don't see something like that ever flying on an even larger scale here in Pittsburgh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Aerial_Tram#Community_response
Photo from that link, lol:

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  #11389  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 4:38 PM
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photoLith photoLith is offline
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Yeah, a tram would never happen in Pittsburgh ever. The people here would flip saying its an invasion of privacy.
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  #11390  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 4:49 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by photoLith View Post
Yeah, a tram would never happen in Pittsburgh ever. The people here would flip saying its an invasion of privacy.
Again, to be clear, we are talking here about aerial gondolas, not trams. There are many important and relevant differences.

Anyway, if you don't actually go directly over SFHs, and in general the residential properties nearby are also overlooked by other buildings with similar views, then privacy complaints would be hard to sustain. Probably there are some cranks who would say that anyway, but there are always people who oppose anything new. You can't let fear of a few cranks keep you from doing anything.
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  #11391  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 6:19 PM
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I don't even know why you're discussing this? It would be like discussing the next tallest building in America getting built in Pittsburgh, its not going to happen. Just sayin.
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  #11392  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 7:03 PM
daviderik daviderik is offline
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Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
There is an interesting discussion in this article about the possible Rivers-related hotel about whether a casino alone is enough to generate demand:

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/bl...dering-new-hotel-in-a-boom.html?page=all

I tend to agree it probably isn't, but at the same time I think if you are talking about that location without talking about the Downtown views and nearby T Station, you are missing an awful lot. That said, I don't disagree with the conclusion that bigger would be better, enough so that the hotel could host functions and conferences and such independently from the casino.
From the article:

McGraw recalled ...."How many people are driving to the casino and staying overnight?" he said. "We don't really see casinos being real demand generators."
I agree with this. But I think the developers also understand they have to draw from overall hotel demand. Visitors coming to pgh for other reasons and a little gambling before the game is an attraction for some.
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  #11393  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 7:03 PM
Brentsters Brentsters is offline
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There's a lot of things people say will never happen, yet they still do.

"A row house in Lawrenceville will never sell for $300,000." (10 years ago you would have probably been laughed at for $100k)

"Nobody will ever go to East Liberty."

"Young people will never move to Pittsburgh."

"The Pirates will never make the playoffs again."

Obviously, something like a gondola would take years of talks and planning, but the climate can change a lot in 10 years.

I have a hunch that Peduto and leadership are planting seeds for a larger transit initiative. The timing is not right currently, but if you allow these things to develop over time they can grow into something real.

I'm speaking generally about mass transit, not specifically about gondolas. I think Peduto understands how to slowly build consensus over time to achieve long-term goals. That's basically the story of his rise to mayorship. To tie it together, in the mid-2000s lots of people said he would never appeal to the city outside of his Shadyside base.
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  #11394  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 7:31 PM
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AaronPGH AaronPGH is offline
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Originally Posted by Brentsters View Post
I have a hunch that Peduto and leadership are planting seeds for a larger transit initiative. The timing is not right currently, but if you allow these things to develop over time they can grow into something real.

I'm speaking generally about mass transit, not specifically about gondolas. I think Peduto understands how to slowly build consensus over time to achieve long-term goals.
From what I've heard, this is exactly whats going on. This is why the strip district > lville > Hazelwood commuter rail project is moving forward. Start with low--hanging fruit that you can execute quickly and cheaply. Show the public (and state/ feds) that you can get a win/get people excited. Then start firing towards the big guns.
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  #11395  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 7:55 PM
Nomad Bryce Nomad Bryce is offline
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I am a big fan of Urban Gondolas as cheap fixed station transit. Buses have better specs for cost/flexibility against almost all public transit projects. But the most basic urban gondolas (Monocable Detachable Gondolas - MDGs) have fantastic fixed costs and operating and maintenance costs when compared to all other forms of fixed route, fixed station transit. There is no reason to buy a streetcar or a metro when you could buy a gondola line. I really really love trains, but their costs are not feasible.

I have high hopes for Pittsburgh public transit! More bike lines, more BRT, and maybe, just maybe, BrianTH's urban gondola =]
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  #11396  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 8:01 PM
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Austinlee Austinlee is offline
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Originally Posted by AaronPGH View Post
Start with low--hanging fruit that you can execute quickly and cheaply. Show the public (and state/ feds) that you can get a win/get people excited. Then start firing towards the big guns.
You just described ISIS's strategy.
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  #11397  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 8:25 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by photoLith View Post
I don't even know why you're discussing this? It would be like discussing the next tallest building in America getting built in Pittsburgh, its not going to happen. Just sayin.
Well, the next tallest building in America would likely be one of the most expensive buildings in U.S. history, and is not particularly needed in Pittsburgh.

Aerial gondolas in contrast are a far less expensive alternative to other forms of dedicated transit, and they are in fact particularly needed in Pittsburgh.

Again, keep in mind the technology is taking off in South American cities which do not have huge funding and have similar topographic challenges. So why not Pittsburgh?

Edit: and incidentally, there is precedent for this. Dedicated busways became very popular in South America, again because they provided relatively high benefits for the costs. And in the U.S., one of pioneering cities for busways was . . . Pittsburgh! Generally there is a legacy here of being smart and innovative and efficient, and although the area was sent reeling for a long time because of the steel bust, I believe we can now get back to that way of doing things.
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  #11398  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 8:27 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by daviderik View Post
Visitors coming to pgh for other reasons and a little gambling before the game is an attraction for some.
Yeah, it more makes sense as an independently good idea for a hotel that will also generate some business for the casino, rather than as a hotel that would never work if not for the casino.
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  #11399  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2015, 9:13 PM
pghaedesign pghaedesign is offline
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I think a hotel will be good for the casino. And especially good for the city by blocking the views of the garage from the river. I had always wondered why there was never a hotel directly associated with the casino, there are plenty of people that use the other hotels on the north shore to stay after gambling and drinking until 6am.

I also think between this hotel, the continental apartments and possibility of the ALCO tower being half residential, there will be a greater push to finish out the north shore. And hopefully continental won't be afraid to build up to 8-10 stories in the future.
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  #11400  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2015, 12:17 AM
mikebarbaro mikebarbaro is offline
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Originally Posted by Brentsters View Post
There's a lot of things people say will never happen, yet they still do.

"A row house in Lawrenceville will never sell for $300,000." (10 years ago you would have probably been laughed at for $100k)

"Nobody will ever go to East Liberty."

"Young people will never move to Pittsburgh."

"The Pirates will never make the playoffs again."

Obviously, something like a gondola would take years of talks and planning, but the climate can change a lot in 10 years.

I have a hunch that Peduto and leadership are planting seeds for a larger transit initiative. The timing is not right currently, but if you allow these things to develop over time they can grow into something real.

I'm speaking generally about mass transit, not specifically about gondolas. I think Peduto understands how to slowly build consensus over time to achieve long-term goals. That's basically the story of his rise to mayorship. To tie it together, in the mid-2000s lots of people said he would never appeal to the city outside of his Shadyside base.
Great points!
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