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  #101  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 5:40 AM
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why put more money into a old downtown that will fall in a earthquake? you dont need a downtown. you need the whole metro to not sprawl, to have rail and be sarta dense imo
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  #102  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 5:54 AM
Derek Derek is offline
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why put more money into a old downtown that will fall in a earthquake? you dont need a downtown. you need the whole metro to not sprawl, to have rail and be sarta dense imo
Dude. What?
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  #103  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 6:12 AM
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you like american citys?
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  #104  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 7:53 AM
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why put more money into a old downtown that will fall in a earthquake? you dont need a downtown. you need the whole metro to not sprawl, to have rail and be sarta dense imo
Wha??? Have you ever been to downtown Portland??
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  #105  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 8:04 AM
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you like american citys?
I like this American city. Portland has a great downtown...you should try spending some time in it.
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  #106  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 8:10 AM
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the only time i go there is to go to the greyhound or amtrak station
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  #107  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 1:45 PM
RED_PDXer RED_PDXer is offline
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Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
Shocking, I know. Tell me though, what amenities can't be provided in the central city except in buildings taller than 100'?

Are you proposing to build twenty-story art museums? The world's tallest public library? A vertical park? A zoo atop a baseball stadium atop a symphony?
a 20-story art museum sounds awesome! you do realize this a skyscraper forum...

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  #108  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 3:16 PM
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i might be on the wrong forum. wheres the car free city forum?
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  #109  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 3:56 PM
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Talking

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i might be on the wrong forum. wheres the car free city forum?
http://portlandtransport.com/
http://bikeportland.org/
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  #110  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 5:05 PM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
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Originally Posted by RED_PDXer View Post
a 20-story art museum sounds awesome! you do realize this a skyscraper forum...

Yeah well, we could build it... filling it might be a struggle.

But I have another, related idea -- what about a Museum of 20th-Century Architecture? Modeled on Berlin's Pergamonmuseum -- which is basically a massive warehouse for fragments of ancient cities (Babylon's Ishtar Gate and Processional Way, the Market Gate of Miletus, Pergamon itself) -- and updating the widespread Baroque (actually imperial Roman) practice of recycling looted Egyptian obelisks as urban street furniture, the Mo20CA would house salvaged pieces of iconic twentieth-century skyscrapers that are now seen as embarrassments to the cities that built them. Detroit's Renaissance Center. 375 Pearl Street in New York. Paris' Tour Montparnasse. Stalinist 'Culture Palaces' from all across the Warsaw Pact. Big Pink. There could be a sculpture garden for Towers-in-Parks. We could house it in the renovated (and appropriately postmodernist) Portland Building.

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Originally Posted by maccoinnich View Post
But if we're going to move to a model that taxes land value more than land use, it would intensify development (i.e. you'd probably get more tall buildings, not less).
mac, this is something you mentioned that I'd like to know more about. Would implementing a land value tax in Portland be feasible? What kinds of effects do you think it would have?
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  #111  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 6:58 PM
twofiftyfive twofiftyfive is offline
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When we have 20+ buildings and single family houses, the only option between these is car.
I agree with your main point about spreading out density, but this is a bit of a straw man. Short of a massive earthquake that levels every building between three and twenty stories, Portland will have (and continue to build) many mid-rise buildings for a long time (i.e. forever).

Besides, the existence of (lots of) single-family houses isn't an impediment to density; the problem is that they are too far apart from each other, both side-to-side and front-to-front.
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  #112  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 7:42 PM
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the only thing that american citys are doing is making skyscrapers. then you get movies and shows filmed there and its a cool city
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  #113  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 8:19 PM
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the only thing that american citys are doing is making skyscrapers. then you get movies and shows filmed there and its a cool city
That's why they build them though - to get free promotion by being in movies. Do you know how many tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars NYC had to invest in buildings in order to get Die Hard to set its plot there? Totally worth it, IMHO. Of course, they lost a fortune a decade later when Godzilla destroyed so much of it.
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  #114  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
mac, this is something you mentioned that I'd like to know more about. Would implementing a land value tax in Portland be feasible? What kinds of effects do you think it would have?
I'm no expert on this, but I think changing the property tax system would require voter approval to change the Oregon constitution. So I think the chance of it happening are remote at best.

As for the effects, let's look at land value in Oregon. The PNCA site in the Pearl is 0.92 acres, and sold for $11.75 million in 2013, or $12.77 million/acre. The OAME site on N Williams is 1.94 acres, and sold for $4.2 million in 2013, or $2.16 million/acre. A 1 acre site at SE 171st and Division sold for $1.48 million in 2010. All were sold for the value of the land alone. This is just by way of making the point that land value in Portland increases dramatically the closer it is the core.

Now lets say we taxed the land value alone at $100 for $1,000 of real market value, but taxed the improvements at $0 (these numbers are just chosen to make the math easier; I have no idea what the correct numbers would be). A one acre site in the Pearl would pay $1.28 million a year, a site on N Williams $216k a year and a site in Centennial would pay $148k a year, whether they have any buildings on them or not. This would incentive property owners to develop properties to their highest and best use. (Sadly for those of us who live downtown, highest and best use is unlikely to be food cart pods). We would likely continue to see single family homes built in East Portland, and medium rise buildings built on the main commercial corridors. But with land values being 6x higher in the Pearl than they are on N Williams, we would likely see much taller buildings built there.

Of course, that's not totally different to what we're already seeing. But I think the biggest effect would that it would quicken the pace at which Downtown properties owned by the Goodmans etc are developed. And if they had to develop, they wouldn't choose to do it at heights less than 100'.
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  #115  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 8:26 PM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is offline
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That's why they build them though - to get free promotion by being in movies. Do you know how many tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars NYC had to invest in buildings in order to get Die Hard to set its plot there? Totally worth it, IMHO. Of course, they lost a fortune a decade later when Godzilla destroyed so much of it.
Did you know that LA built its subway system solely for the film Speed?
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  #116  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 8:41 PM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
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Originally Posted by maccoinnich View Post
Did you know that LA built its subway system solely for the film Speed?
"I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

-Homer Simpson, my hero.
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  #117  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 11:25 PM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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Did you know that LA built its subway system solely for the film Speed?
Of course, who didn't know that? Keanu Reeves is a very influential actor, after all.
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  #118  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 11:29 PM
bvpcvm bvpcvm is online now
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You guys are so full of it. Everyone knows that LA's subway was built for Total Recall.
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  #119  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2015, 11:47 PM
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does anyone know the ROI on the Golden Gate Bridge? it's been in, what, 10,000 someodd movies?
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  #120  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2015, 2:16 AM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
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Originally Posted by maccoinnich View Post
I'm no expert on this, but I think changing the property tax system would require voter approval to change the Oregon constitution. So I think the chance of it happening are remote at best.... But I think the biggest effect would that it would quicken the pace at which Downtown properties owned by the Goodmans etc are developed. And if they had to develop, they wouldn't choose to do it at heights less than 100'.
Right. So snowball's chance in hell, but if passed, the main effect would be to encourage owners to develop their property to its highest and best use.

As Henry George envisioned it (if I understand right), the other purpose of a strong LVT was to eliminate (or perhaps greatly reduce) the speculative value of real estate. If every increase in value is taxed proportionally (and at a high rate), then land is no longer a good investment. Its value would thus undergo an adjustment; it would subsequently reflect what the market would theoretically be willing to pay in rent were the property to be developed to its highest and best use. Thus, I imagine, land in the Pearl would still cost significantly more than what it does on Williams (because there's more demand to live there, and because allowable height is taller). The city, presumably, and not property owners would ultimately benefit financially from the higher rents that residents of more desirable areas must pay (which is only fair, since the city pays for all the amenities that make it a desirable area to live in). But if land (as opposed to improvements) is no longer valuable as an investment, would land everywhere in the city become cheaper? And if land values drop but the housing stock increases as properties are developed to their full potential, would this cause rents to plummet?

It sounds like a fantastic win for Portland. (For renters anyway, if not for landlords). If Portlanders wanted to limit buildings above any given height in any district they could amend the zoning code accordingly -- and property owners would have less reason to object, since their LVT would decline proportionally to the property's diminished potential. Indeed, they would really only have cause to object if the city raised height limits beyond the landlord's capacity to develop, forcing them to sell.

Can you identify any flaws in this appealing vision?

[Edit: I finally got curious enough to just google the thing myself. This Economist article gives a pretty clear explanation of an LVT's effects on the housing market: land values decline, development increases, rents decrease. And concludes, depressingly: 'The bigge[st] barrier is political. LVTs would impose concentrated costs on today’s landowners, who face a new tax bill and a reduced sale price. The benefit, by contrast, is spread equally over today’s population and future generations. This problem is unlikely to be overcome. Economists will continue to advocate LVTs, and politicians will continue to ignore them.']

Last edited by Encolpius; Feb 11, 2015 at 2:52 AM.
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