Highways in Canada

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

408 would be what, the Mid-Peninsula Highway?

411 definitely should be reserved for any renumbering of 11 between Barrie and North Bay. If the Barrie to Gravenhurst section is upgraded to a freeway, they probably could get away with renumbering the whole thing 411 (and truncating 11 to North Bay), although there are a few overpasses and closures still to be done.

In recent years MTO has enacted a policy not to designate a road as a 400-series highway unless (with minor exceptions) it meets full 400-series standards.

I think this policy was enacted in order to quash the elected officials in Port Colborne's desire to have Hwy 140 redesignated as Hwy 406. There was a movement to redesignate Hwy 140 as 406 five or six years ago.

The 400-series policy includes several things, including a minimum highway length of something like 25km, (unless the highway connects two other 400-series highways, such as the 409, or future 412), no grade level crossings (with minor exceptions for remote wilderness roads such as the 400), and mandates at least four lanes of traffic (two per direction).

Hwy 11 might be able to get a 400-series designation if the minor accesses that it meets at-grade didn't have median crossovers, but as it is, I don't see it meeting the MTO's policy on 400-series designations for a long, long time. That said, I wouldn't want to see the 411 designation used for any other highway project aside from an upgraded Hwy 11.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

In recent years MTO has enacted a policy not to designate a road as a 400-series highway unless (with minor exceptions) it meets full 400-series standards.

I think this policy was enacted in order to quash the elected officials in Port Colborne's desire to have Hwy 140 redesignated as Hwy 406. There was a movement to redesignate Hwy 140 as 406 five or six years ago.

The 400-series policy includes several things, including a minimum highway length of something like 25km, (unless the highway connects two other 400-series highways, such as the 409, or future 412), no grade level crossings (with minor exceptions for remote wilderness roads such as the 400), and mandates at least four lanes of traffic (two per direction).

Hwy 11 might be able to get a 400-series designation if the minor accesses that it meets at-grade didn't have median crossovers, but as it is, I don't see it meeting the MTO's policy on 400-series designations for a long, long time. That said, I wouldn't want to see the 411 designation used for any other highway project aside from an upgraded Hwy 11.

So in theory, if Highways 406 or 410 (north of the 407) were to be built today, they would not qualify as 400-series?

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

So in theory, if Highways 406 or 410 (north of the 407) were to be built today, they would not qualify as 400-series?

Before the twinning is completed this year, the 406 definitely wouldn't have been a 400-series highway. With the completion of the twinning this year, it just squeaks though with the current policy. The 410 is technically too short though.

I just checked the intranet site and found the 400-series designation policy. Since its an internal document, I'm probably not supposed to post this verbatim as I am, but I don't think the policy is really meant to be kept a secret:

To be considered for a 400-series designation, a highway must:
• Be a divided highway consisting of two or more lanes in each direction separated by a median area or physical barrier in compliance with current design standards for freeways.
• Be controlled by access and egress provided only at interchanges through the use of ramps with acceleration and deceleration lanes and tapers in compliance with current design standards for freeways.
• Be posted with a speed limit of 100 km/h or the maximum speed limit as set by regulation.
o Short segments, approximately 5 km or less, may be posted at a lower speed (not less than 80 km/h) only when specific and unique geometric constraints exist; and;
o Such segments are rare and separated by at least 20 km to avoid the violation of driver expectancy through frequent speed variations.
• Be a continuous highway of not less than 25 km unless:
o Connecting two other 400-series highways (e.g. Hwy 409); or,
o Providing access to a provincial or international border crossing, in which case it must be connected to another 400-series highway. When the length of the connecting highway is 2 km or less, the connecting highway shall be considered as an access between an existing 400-series highway and the border crossing without being given 400-series designation.
• Prohibit use by bicycles and pedestrians.
• Prohibit parking, except in emergencies.
• Be free from at-grade rail crossings, lift bridges or any other features that would impede the free flow of traffic.
A new designation of a 400-series highway will not require a direct connection to another 400-series highway, except as mentioned above. However, when a freeway segment will be the logical and intended extension of an existing 400-series highway, a continuous connection to the existing 400-series highway must be completed prior to designation.
When two major freeway sections exist at each end of a planned corridor, separated by one or more non-conforming sections in what will eventually be a continuous freeway, only one end or the other may be designated as a 400-series highway. Extensions may be designated as completed.

To be considered for a 400-series designation, an existing King’s highway must:
• Be a divided highway consisting of two or more lanes in each direction separated by a median area or physical barrier.
• Be of sufficient design to safely allow for a posted speed of 100 km/h or the maximum speed limit as set by regulation.
• Be controlled by access and egress provided only at interchanges through the use of ramps with acceleration and deceleration lanes and tapers in compliance with current design standards for freeways, or:
o In the case of an existing King’s highway with at grade access/egress, in no case have a crossing road intersection; only right-in, right-out accesses; and,
o When right-in, right-out accesses exist, acceleration and deceleration lanes are lengthened as required to comply with appropriate design standards.
• In no case be controlled by traffic control signals, stop signs or yield signs.
• Have a maximum density of at-grade accesses or intersections of one in 10 km, each being conspicuously and effectively identified to drivers in advance.
• Be a continuous highway of not less than 25 km unless:
o Connecting two other 400-series highways; or,
o Providing access to a provincial or international border crossing, in which case it must be connected to another 400-series highway. When the length of the connecting highway is 2 km or less, the connecting highway shall be considered as an access, retain it’s King’s highway number and not be given 400-series designation.

[Innsertnamehere]

Interesting, so unless they connect the twinned highway 17 to Ottawa it isn't allowed to be re-designated Highway 417. Once the Sudbury Highway 17 bypass twinning is finished towards the decade it would be eligible for a 400 series designation if it were not for that rule.

Heck, they could have the Highway go from Espanola to Mattawa and it still wouldn't count as a 400 series highway.

Also, I think MTO would have just designated the 410 as highway 403 if they couldn't do 410.

[Franco401]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Before the twinning is completed this year, the 406 definitely wouldn't have been a 400-series highway. With the completion of the twinning this year, it just squeaks though with the current policy. The 410 is technically too short though.

I just checked the intranet site and found the 400-series designation policy. Since its an internal document, I'm probably not supposed to post this verbatim as I am, but I don't think the policy is really meant to be kept a secret:

So the 420 shouldn't be a 400-series? I would have been a border route before downloading, but it is now only 2.75 km and connects only to local roads. I know there's been talk of a western extension to the 406 at Thorold or as part of the Mid-Pen, in which case the Mid-Pen is numbered 420, but for now it should carry another designation, no?

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Before the twinning is completed this year, the 406 definitely wouldn't have been a 400-series highway. With the completion of the twinning this year, it just squeaks though with the current policy. The 410 is technically too short though.

I just checked the intranet site and found the 400-series designation policy. Since its an internal document, I'm probably not supposed to post this verbatim as I am, but I don't think the policy is really meant to be kept a secret:

Are there similar guidelines for designating conventional King's Highways or Secondary Highways?

[MolsonExport]

what about the EDR? How much do you hate the EDR? Put up signs, call it the EDR, and they figure that they've got an alternative? Well, lemme tell you, the EDR is fucking beyond terrible when they close a 400-series highway. Parking lot would be a kind way to describe.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Franco401

So the 420 shouldn't be a 400-series? I would have been a border route before downloading, but it is now only 2.75 km and connects only to local roads. I know there's been talk of a western extension to the 406 at Thorold or as part of the Mid-Pen, in which case the Mid-Pen is numbered 420, but for now it should carry another designation, no?

The policy was put into place in something like 2008; the intent wasn't to be retroactive to decisions that were made decades before the new policy was enacted.

But you are right, given the length of the 420, if the highway were being designated today, it likely would have either been an extension of Hwy 20, or perhaps even just signed as "Roberts Street" due to its short length.

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Are there similar guidelines for designating conventional King's Highways or Secondary Highways?

If there is, I don't know of it.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

what about the EDR? How much do you hate the EDR? Put up signs, call it the EDR, and they figure that they've got an alternative? Well, lemme tell you, the EDR is fucking beyond terrible when they close a 400-series highway. Parking lot would be a kind way to describe.

The routing of the EDR is selected in consultation with the local municipality that the highway passes through. The idea behind the EDR is to provide wayfinding signage for those motorists who are hapless at navigating local roads during an emergency closure. Obviously, during an emergency closure the EDR route is going to face significant traffic strain that the route would not ordinarily handle. The purpose of the route is not to try to supplant the capacity of the route that has been closed due to the emergency, but rather reduce the burden on emergency services from directing traffic by providing wayfinding signage to errant motorists.

Personally, if I encountered a closure on a major highway, I'd use a map and find an alternate route that did not follow the posted EDR.

[1overcosc]

EDRs are somewhat funny because in many rural areas of the province the roads are all in a grid making on the fly navigation easy enough. This is especially the case in SW Ontario, although not so much in the east.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

what about the EDR? How much do you hate the EDR? Put up signs, call it the EDR, and they figure that they've got an alternative? Well, lemme tell you, the EDR is fucking beyond terrible when they close a 400-series highway. Parking lot would be a kind way to describe.

It's not always well signed either. I've sometimes used EDR signage to find my way off and back to a highway in an unfamiliar area, but in Arnprior, the EDR signage for Highway 417 westbound disappears once you've turned onto Madawaska Blvd, and I got myself lost trying to find my way back to the 417 to continue west as there was no signage anywhere. I don't use GPS but that would have been a good time to have one.

[sonysnob]

double post

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

EDRs are somewhat funny because in many rural areas of the province the roads are all in a grid making on the fly navigation easy enough. This is especially the case in SW Ontario, although not so much in the east.

Between Woodstock and Milton the 401 goes very much against the local grid of concessions. So while the roads follow a general pattern, it can be quit confusing to follow the local road network instead of the 401 if there is a closure or congestion.

The MTO is constructing a new permanent CMS sign in Woodstock in advance of the 403 interchange which, once operational, will be able to display traffic information on both the 401 and 403 between Woodstock and Toronto, which will be highly beneficial to motorists for obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by manny_santos

It's not always well signed either. I've sometimes used EDR signage to find my way off and back to a highway in an unfamiliar area, but in Arnprior, the EDR signage for Highway 417 westbound disappears once you've turned onto Madawaska Blvd, and I got myself lost trying to find my way back to the 417 to continue west as there was no signage anywhere. I don't use GPS but that would have been a good time to have one.

I can think of two reasons why this might be the case:

1. The 417 is still relatively new through Arnprior, and the EDR signage was erected before the extension was completed west of Ottawa Road 29.

2. West of the Madawaska River, the 417 is located in a different municipality than it is east of it, and the MTO has yet (or is in the process of) negotiated a detour route for the highway through that municipality.

I don't use a GPS device either, (though I can use my phone if I get stuck), but I always have a good high quality map of Ontario in the car for instances like this.

That said, driving the highways and byways of Ontario is a hobby of mine, and after so many years of doing so, I can navigate most of Ontario (even a lot, though certainly not all, of its concession roads) without the aid of a roadmap.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I can think of two reasons why this might be the case:

1. The 417 is still relatively new through Arnprior, and the EDR signage was erected before the extension was completed west of Ottawa Road 29.

2. West of the Madawaska River, the 417 is located in a different municipality than it is east of it, and the MTO has yet (or is in the process of) negotiated a detour route for the highway through that municipality.

I don't use a GPS device either, (though I can use my phone if I get stuck), but I always have a good high quality map of Ontario in the car for instances like this.

That said, driving the highways and byways of Ontario is a hobby of mine, and after so many years of doing so, I can navigate most of Ontario (even a lot, though certainly not all, of its concession roads) without the aid of a roadmap.

Makes total sense - when I spoke with someone at the Town of Arnprior, she said the municipality was in the process of "working with the MTO" on the issue.

I can navigate almost anywhere in Southwestern and Central Ontario, but I'm still hazy with a lot of Eastern Ontario off of the highways outside the Kingston area.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Makes total sense - when I spoke with someone at the Town of Arnprior, she said the municipality was in the process of "working with the MTO" on the issue.

I can navigate almost anywhere in Southwestern and Central Ontario, but I'm still hazy with a lot of Eastern Ontario off of the highways outside the Kingston area.

The local road network in Eastern Ontario is a lot less intuitive than it is elsewhere in the south. Lot less grid, and road names generally don't use concession numbers.

[le calmar]

We don't have this issue in Quebec. The road network in Quebec is based on the US Interstate system, so the numbering is very logical.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by le calmar

We don't have this issue in Quebec. The road network in Quebec is based on the US Interstate system, so the numbering is very logical.

Yes, even the numbers for highways and autoroutes that won't ever be built are already predetermined here!

[Innsertnamehere]

what issue? The 400 series highways have the same numbering standards as interstates, and the US freeway network is even worse as they have many non interstate freeways running for hundreds of kilometres across different states.

Interstates need to be fully grade seperated, be continuous (well not anymore, but this has historically been a rule, it has changed so that Texas is allowed to designate their little bits of completed I-69), etc.

The whole even-odd thing for east-west and north-south highways isn't really needed, nor is the even odd thing for secondary interstates that is used for ones that loop around and meet another interstate and ones that are "dead ends".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

what issue? The 400 series highways have the same numbering standards as interstates, and the US freeway network is even worse as they have many non interstate freeways running for hundreds of kilometres across different states.

Interstates need to be fully grade seperated, be continuous (well not anymore, but this has historically been a rule, it has changed so that Texas is allowed to designate their little bits of completed I-69), etc.

The whole even-odd thing for east-west and north-south highways isn't really needed, nor is the even odd thing for secondary interstates that is used for ones that loop around and meet another interstate and ones that are "dead ends".

Well, in the case of the Quebec system, all of the highways generally follow increasing numbers from west to east, and from south to north. So if you're on autoroute and looking for the 315 and you just passed an exit for the 309 going east, you know you're going in the right direction.

It can be kind of handy for orientation purposes.

[MalcolmTucker]

Just put in 1600 km on the Interstate for a ski trip. Wow, it is fun to drive at 140 kph on empty roads curving through canyons. There is no real need for a road of that scale (from the Grand Tetons and Yellowstone to the Alberta border), but it is pretty nice that it was built.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by le calmar

We don't have this issue in Quebec. The road network in Quebec is based on the US Interstate system, so the numbering is very logical.

We're talking about navigating the local backroads, not the highways.