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[someone123]

Originally Posted by Empire

I wish we had more of an appreciation in Halifax for buildings like the Dennis Building. Winnipeg is very proud of their Exchange District and is something worthy of preservation. We should take note.

Yeah, it's strange because Halifax has some of the nicest heritage buildings in Canada, but few people seem to realize it or place much value in it. You really notice it compared to cities like Winnipeg or Saint John NB where there seems to be a bit more civic identification with architectural heritage. Quebec City is another good example because people act like the heritage buildings and history there are on a completely different level but, really, it is like that because citizens and the government made it so during the postwar period. Back in the 1970's and earlier many of the prime heritage spots in Quebec looked like something that most HRM councillors and developers wouldn't think twice about tearing down today.

I've said it before but I blame past heritage lobbying efforts for this. They've been very bitter so they've turned some people off of the idea of anything "heritage"-related, and they've focused disproportionately on houses in residential areas and peripheral issues like views and height limits. The Dennis Building and Green Lantern Building have never really been front and centre in any sustained debate on heritage in the city, which is crazy. The Roy Building also went down without much discussion; a lot of people didn't even seem to realize that it was being demolished.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yeah, it's strange because Halifax has some of the nicest heritage buildings in Canada, but few people seem to realize it or place much value in it. You really notice it compared to cities like Winnipeg or Saint John NB where there seems to be a bit more civic identification with architectural heritage. Quebec City is another good example because people act like the heritage buildings and history there are on a completely different level but, really, it is like that because citizens and the government made it so during the postwar period. Back in the 1970's and earlier many of the prime heritage spots in Quebec looked like something that most HRM councillors and developers wouldn't think twice about tearing down today.

I've said it before but I blame past heritage lobbying efforts for this. They've been very bitter so they've turned some people off of the idea of anything "heritage"-related, and they've focused disproportionately on houses in residential areas and peripheral issues like views and height limits. The Dennis Building and Green Lantern Building have never really been front and centre in any sustained debate on heritage in the city, which is crazy. The Roy Building also went down without much discussion; a lot of people didn't even seem to realize that it was being demolished.

Amen to all of that.

There's a website aimed at saving the Dennis Building, but it has been pretty stale lately. Looks like no updates in at least 3 months. To the casual observer, it has the appearance of a half-hearted effort to make it look like something's being done when it really isn't.

http://www.dennisbuilding.ca/

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Although in fairness to Halifax, Winnipeg's downtown blows.

Literally: Main/Portage is the windiest intersection in Canada.

Winnipeg's downtown is also HUGE. There are some really great parts and some really bleak parts and some really boring parts. Many of the older commercial buildings/streetscapes are much more monumental than anything you'd really see in Halifax, but this also contributes to a rather dull street-life. On the other hand the architecture in the Exchange District didn't seem like anything special (except that it's old... but very plain) but it's a much more vibrant place to actually do stuff.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

I've said it before but I blame past heritage lobbying efforts for this. They've been very bitter so they've turned some people off of the idea of anything "heritage"-related, and they've focused disproportionately on houses in residential areas and peripheral issues like views and height limits. The Dennis Building and Green Lantern Building have never really been front and centre in any sustained debate on heritage in the city, which is crazy. The Roy Building also went down without much discussion; a lot of people didn't even seem to realize that it was being demolished.

Last year I was driving past the Roy with a colleague, and it had a whole bunch of scaffolding over it as they prepped it for demolition. "Oh, that's great," she said. "They're fixing it up." I had to break the news that it was, in fact, entirely the opposite.

I concur about the notion that Haligonians are have a weaker identification with the city's architectural past. In Winnipeg, outrage ensues when pretty much anything gets knocked down. In Toronto, the Star just went on a week-long hand-wring about heritage because a fairly modest two-storey building at Yonge and Bloor was torn down before it went through a proper heritage appraisal. In Halifax, we knock down the Roy or the Dennis (if that happens), and it's a ho-hum, that's too bad but what're you gonna do? attitude.

I've become somewhat more optimistic on the Dennis. The plan as of last year was to knock it down over the winter, which clearly isn't happening, and the province and minister Kousoulis, I think, may have been to some degree convinced by some of the lobbying that went on around it. I'm still not sure of the plans for it, but it seems like there's now a greater willingness to consider alternatives to outright demolition. I hope I'm right.

As for the Green Lantern, I think most people have no idea it's endangered, and I think it's time for someone, either media or activists or a politician, to take it on as a cause. It's a pretty huge no-brainer from a heritage perspective. I think you could get a pretty major save-the-Green-Lantern movement going on with a lot of support. It's also absurd that Jeff Webber (the owner) went on record as stating that even if it takes a decade to knock it down, he'll wait it out, and likely keep the thing empty and decaying the whole time. I can't imagine media in another city not leaping all over a landlord who's basically just stated "I am committed to destroying a protected and valued building, and until the city lets me, I'm gonna leave it as a nasty blight." How much more villainous can you get?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Literally: Main/Portage is the windiest intersection in Canada.

Winnipeg's downtown is also HUGE. There are some really great parts and some really bleak parts and some really boring parts. Many of the older commercial buildings/streetscapes are much more monumental than anything you'd really see in Halifax, but this also contributes to a rather dull street-life. On the other hand the architecture in the Exchange District didn't seem like anything special (except that it's old... but very plain) but it's a much more vibrant place to actually do stuff.

I was actually impressed with the heritage architecture the last time I was in downtown Winnipeg (though not particularly so with the Exchange district, which I found feeling rather claustrophobic and bland). Many of the larger old buildings in Winnipeg reminded me of a smaller-scale Chicago. I have never had a similar impression of downtown Halifax. We never really had any impressive older buildings of the same scale. The Dennis is pretty nondescript, and most of what we have saved is fine, but not particularly impressive.

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I concur about the notion that Haligonians are have a weaker identification with the city's architectural past. In Winnipeg, outrage ensues when pretty much anything gets knocked down. In Toronto, the Star just went on a week-long hand-wring about heritage because a fairly modest two-storey building at Yonge and Bloor was torn down before it went through a proper heritage appraisal. In Halifax, we knock down the Roy or the Dennis (if that happens), and it's a ho-hum, that's too bad but what're you gonna do? attitude.

Sadly developers still (often successfully) try to tear down heritage buildings every year. Most of these buildings are torn down for surface parking lots.

Seems like for every old building refurbished into new condo's a building beside this new development needs to be torn down to provide parking.

A couple of years ago a developer even successfully tore down a beautiful building beside old market square (a small area popular for concerts/festivals) and put up a parking structure.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Wigglez

Sadly developers still (often successfully) try to tear down heritage buildings every year. Most of these buildings are torn down for surface parking lots.

Seems like for every old building refurbished into new condo's a building beside this new development needs to be torn down to provide parking.

A couple of years ago a developer even successfully tore down a beautiful building beside old market square (a small area popular for concerts/festivals) and put up a parking structure.

Did you mean the Ryan Block/Bedford Parkade? If so, that's actually sort of illustrative of what I mean. In Winnipeg, this project (dismantling the facade of a historic building and reconstructing it around a parking structure) got the community up in arms. Here, it'd be considered a pretty spiffy example of preservation.

I follow Winnipeg quasi-closely and it feels like there has been a lot lost in recent decades, but the pace of demolition has slowed a lot. The city's reputation is probably (IMO) worse than the reality. It seems like there's a really strong pro-heritage sentiment that cuts across political and economic lines.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

We never really had any impressive older buildings of the same scale. The Dennis is pretty nondescript, and most of what we have saved is fine, but not particularly impressive.

I don't really find the buildings in Halifax more or less impressive, just different because they are from a different era. It is similar to how appealing modern architecture is different from buildings constructed in the early 1900's. The construction technology and styles of the older buildings are distinct and interesting and a lot of people find them charming so they are worth preserving.

The exceptional stuff in Halifax is mostly from about 1800 and earlier. The monumental heritage buildings in Winnipeg are actually closer in age to modern buildings than they are to older Halifax structures like St. Paul's (1750) or the Town Clock (1802).

Even a building like Morse's Teas is from circa 1840. It would be the oldest building in most Canadian cities. Government House was started in 1799 and Province House was 1811. The stone Privateer's Warehouse building is from the 1700's too; there are a lot of buildings from that age in Halifax. Toronto's building stock from the 1810's and earlier is mostly log cabins. Canada has very few pre-Victorian buildings and a significant percentage of the nicest ones are in Halifax. I'm not sure anything rivals Province House in terms of age and quality.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Did you mean the Ryan Block/Bedford Parkade? If so, that's actually sort of illustrative of what I mean. In Winnipeg, this project (dismantling the facade of a historic building and reconstructing it around a parking structure) got the community up in arms. Here, it'd be considered a pretty spiffy example of preservation.
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The link that you provided, which was written by Heritage Winnipeg, actually states that the Ryan Block was awarded a 'Preservation Award of Excellence" for commercial conservation in 2012. This was for saving two facades of a building severely damaged by fire.

In order for anyone to accept your point of view they must not read the link that you provided. I therefore consider it to be a straw man argument and consider it to be offensive. You should stop distorting the information in clearly written stories in an attempt to sway people to your point of view, which you stated as "Haligonians have a weaker identification with the city's architectural past" than do residents of other cities (based on previous posts you seem to include residents of almost all other cities).

I think that a direct analogy to the Ryan Block in Winnipeg would be the NFB building in Halifax on Barrington Street. It both cities of Halifax and Winnipeg, funds were made available to encourage developers to save the facades of fire damaged buildings. In Winnipeg the developers appear to have done a fair job of maintaining the heritage streetscape - https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.898284,-9...3m4!1e1!3m2!1suLepyUgWkcVcVd0N_y2qBw!2e0. I hope that the NFB building will turn out as well or better.

I am being purposely repetitive in stating that your remarks are derogatory towards the city of Halifax and its residents, and are personally offensive to me even though I am an ex-resident.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I am being purposely repetitive in stating that your remarks are derogatory towards the city of Halifax and its residents, and are personally offensive to me even though I am an ex-resident.

Halifax and Haligonians have not done a sufficient job of maintaining the city's built heritage, and some Haligonians seem to have a strain of antipathy toward heritage, a tendency I've never noticed in another city. That's all I'm saying. My purpose is not to offend. I was just stating that to a Winnipeg former, an award-winning example of preservation as considered destruction, which says something (positive) about the value Winnipeggers place on their history.

Look: I cannot envision buildings like the Green Lantern or the Dennis or the BMO/Fireside block (a whole block!) being endangered in the other cities I've lived in over the past decade. Certainly I've not seen any demolitions on the scale of those, outside of fires. Certainly THREE all endangered at the same time is ludicrous. I'm not trying to insult the city, but there's a problem here.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Halifax and Haligonians have not done a sufficient job of maintaining the city's built heritage, and some Haligonians seem to have a strain of antipathy toward heritage, a tendency I've never noticed in another city. That's all I'm saying. My purpose is not to offend. I was just stating that to a Winnipeg former, an award-winning example of preservation as considered destruction, which says something (positive) about the value Winnipeggers place on their history.

Look: I cannot envision buildings like the Green Lantern or the Dennis or the BMO/Fireside block (a whole block!) being endangered in the other cities I've lived in over the past decade. Certainly I've not seen any demolitions on the scale of those, outside of fires. Certainly THREE all endangered at the same time is ludicrous. I'm not trying to insult the city, but there's a problem here.

You are posting information on a skyscraper/development forum and despite that fact you still get some support for your distortion of facts. I have no problem with other forumers who support heritage but who do so in a practical, factual manner. I am offended because of your attempt to manipulate facts.

If you were posting on a heritage website would you then conclude that the entire population of Halifax is fighting for heritage preservation?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

You are posting information on a skyscraper/development forum and despite that fact you still get some support for your Tim_Bousquet-like distortion of facts. I have no problem with other forumers who support heritage but who do so in a practical, factual manner. I am offended because of your attempt to manipulate facts.

If you were posting on a heritage website would you then conclude that the entire population of Halifax is fighting for heritage preservation?

I'm not talking about what I'm seeing from people in this site (most of whom are supportive of preservation) but from what I see in the community. I'm personally involved in these issues. I think there's a lot of support for heritage in the city, but in the media and political sphere, the city's built heritage is under-valued as a civic resource. The tone of our discussion fixates on heritage as a problem or impediment to deal with, and that is very different from what I've observed elsewhere.

I think maybe you're misunderstanding what I'm saying and where I'm coming from, so let's cut this off now and move on.

[Keith P.]

Whatever anti-Heritage sentiment there may be in this city - and I suspect it is hardly a majority view - is likely due to the actions of the Heritage Trust and their supporters over the last couple of decades in opposing virtually every proposed project downtown on "heritage" grounds, even when it involved building something on empty lots. The absurdity of viewplanes and adjacency compatibility arguments that ended up making almost anything built downtown in the last 30 years be short, stubby, clad in red brick and (as in the case of the Neptune and Marriott Residence Inn) have hideous faux-Victorian detailing naturally started to generate some questions as to what we have bought into. Add to that the arguably biased HRMxD process that was perceived by many as an appeasement to the loudest heritage voices and it is not hard to see where such resentment comes from. Barrington has been an unattractive street for 30+ years because so many of its buildings are old, run-down and extremely unattractive. The city has done little to change that and has dithered on what role it wishes to play in keeping the status quo. A few thousand dollars in tax rebates or grants will not do much on a multi-million dollar project. It must own part of this issue.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Whatever anti-Heritage sentiment there may be in this city - and I suspect it is hardly a majority view - is likely due to the actions of the Heritage Trust and their supporters over the last couple of decades in opposing virtually every proposed project downtown on "heritage" grounds, even when it involved building something on empty lots.... It must own part of this issue.

Totally agree. Heritage groups nationwide tend to be more diverse in their membership and outreach. The HT, as we all know, is pretty astoundingly fuddy-duddy and cloistered in its membership.

[Empire]

I think there is a significant disconnect between what HRM residents expect in terms of heritage conservation and what is obtainable through the current mindset of city hall and the outdated and cumbersome policies that govern development and demolition. I would guess that for the most part residents would be shocked to learn any building in the city can be demolished. I would also guess that most residents would be shocked to learn that there is little being done to preserve what we have left of our heritage stock. Just look at the result of three historic buildings that recently underwent renovations and are now buildings that truly represent the historic flavour of Halifax. The Dominion Public Building, the J.W. Johnston building and the Art Gallery of NS. These are perfectly restored mainly because of government ownership. The clear observation is that it takes significant resources to achieve this type of restoration.

HRM can start investing in significant historic buildings by offering massive tax incentives for the preservation of registered buildings. Zero municipal property tax for a registered heritage building properly maintained is what I propose. Additionally, total demolition would be prohibited and facadism would only be permitted when all other avenues of restoration have been exhausted. HT is rarely proactive in preserving heritage as they are too occupied with shadows, wind, views and ensuring ugly buildings like the Prince George occupy prime building sites downtown.

Below is what is left of our commercial heritage stock pre 1960 over 5 storeys. The list is very small and we need to find a way to maintain what we have left.


Dennis Building

Empire

Dominion Public Building

Empire

Bluenose Diner

Empire

Morse's Tea Building

Empire

J.W. Johnston Building left - St. Paul's Building right

Google Maps

Bank of Nova Scotia

Google Maps

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Did you mean the Ryan Block/Bedford Parkade? If so, that's actually sort of illustrative of what I mean. In Winnipeg, this project (dismantling the facade of a historic building and reconstructing it around a parking structure) got the community up in arms. Here, it'd be considered a pretty spiffy example of preservation.

I follow Winnipeg quasi-closely and it feels like there has been a lot lost in recent decades, but the pace of demolition has slowed a lot. The city's reputation is probably (IMO) worse than the reality. It seems like there's a really strong pro-heritage sentiment that cuts across political and economic lines.

Sorry, I didn't post my statement to disagree with you that we value history here. It was more of a statement that no matter how loud a community yells money always has more power.

That said, yes there have been fewer buildings torn down over the last few years, mostly because it has finally become economically viable to turn them into condo's instead of parking lots.

As for the Ryan Block, many people didn't consider tearing the whole thing down and rebuilding the facade to attach it to a parkade to be a proper use of a heritage building. Which does support your statement on how Winnipegers feel about heritage. My statement was just that a strong opinion often doesn't matter if someone can make a profit off its destruction .

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Look: I cannot envision buildings like the Green Lantern or the Dennis or the BMO/Fireside block (a whole block!) being endangered in the other cities I've lived in over the past decade. Certainly I've not seen any demolitions on the scale of those, outside of fires. Certainly THREE all endangered at the same time is ludicrous. I'm not trying to insult the city, but there's a problem here.

And then there's been talk of modifying the Royal Bank block, the block of Spring Garden Road east of Queen Street, the TD tower facadism (and previous demolition of the Kelly Building), the Discovery Centre building was going to be gutted, the Bank of Canada building was demolished, and on and on.

I think a part of the disconnect is that over the past 5 years or so the amount of development pressure downtown has increased enormously. The density of construction happening in Halifax right now reminds me of Vancouver or Toronto. Actually it might be significantly greater than downtown Vancouver at the moment. It takes a lot more organization and effort to preserve heritage buildings in this type of environment. Most heritage preservation in Canada has occurred in cities that have traditionally had relatively little postwar development pressure.

The problem with transit in Halifax is similar in that a good chunk of the population, the media, politicians, and bureaucrats at one point seem to have internalized the idea that Halifax is a low-growth or declining city with an uncertain future. The city's been growing every year and technology keeps changing but we are stuck with modest incremental changes to 1960's-era infrastructure.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Empire

I think there is a significant disconnect between what HRM residents expect in terms of heritage conservation and what is obtainable through the current mindset of city hall and the outdated and cumbersome policies that govern development and demolition. I would guess that for the most part residents would be shocked to learn any building in the city can be demolished. I would also guess that most residents would be shocked to learn that there is little being done to preserve what we have left of our heritage stock. Just look at the result of three historic buildings that recently underwent renovations and are now buildings that truly represent the historic flavour of Halifax. The Dominion Public Building, the J.W. Johnston building and the Art Gallery of NS. These are perfectly restored mainly because of government ownership. The clear observation is that it takes significant resources to achieve this type of restoration.

HRM can start investing in significant historic buildings by offering massive tax incentives for the preservation of registered buildings. Zero municipal property tax for a registered heritage building properly maintained is what I propose. Additionally, total demolition would be prohibited and facadism would only be permitted when all other avenues of restoration have been exhausted. HT is rarely proactive in preserving heritage as they are too occupied with shadows, wind, views and ensuring ugly buildings like the Prince George occupy prime building sites downtown.

Below is what is left of our commercial heritage stock pre 1960 over 5 storeys. The list is very small and we need to find a way to maintain what we have left.


Dennis Building

Empire

Dominion Public Building

Empire

Bluenose Diner

Empire

Morse's Tea Building

Empire

J.W. Johnston Building left - St. Paul's Building right

Google Maps

Bank of Nova Scotia

Google Maps

Excellent post. Absolutely agree that the whole line of thinking needs to be overhauled and that significant incentives need to be offered to make preserving heritage buildings a stronger business case.

As a lifelong resident of "Halifax" (formally HRM), I've always noticed that "we" have had a hard time imagining that "we" can have the same things that larger cities can have. Restoring, modernizing, preserving, overhauling a heritage building is a huge job, one that I would offer is much more difficult and expensive than just building new from scratch. These kind of "impractical" projects have always been on the cusp of our awareness as happening in other places, whereas "we" feel that we just have to make due and survive, without the "extravagant" projects that other places with lots of money have.

This is a very real perception, I think, and although I believe it is changing I feel there will long be a percentage of our people who would think that any extra money built to just make an old property beautiful and useful again is a waste when it's cheaper to rip it down and build a "practical" modern box in its place. It is this attitude that I think still prevails in our city/province at a political level - there still seems to be an overwhelming lack of vision at these levels for some reason.

Just my 2¢ (errr... 5¢ if I want to be more current) on the matter, from somebody who has always lived here and still loves living here... but recognizes we can do much better than we have been.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

As a lifelong resident of "Halifax" (formally HRM), I've always noticed that "we" have had a hard time imagining that "we" can have the same things that larger cities can have. Restoring, modernizing, preserving, overhauling a heritage building is a huge job, one that I would offer is much more difficult and expensive than just building new from scratch. These kind of "impractical" projects have always been on the cusp of our awareness as happening in other places, whereas "we" feel that we just have to make due and survive, without the "extravagant" projects that other places with lots of money have.

I think even "HRM" was related to this attitude. You don't hear it as much today but people used to go on and on about how Halifax is as much an assemblage of rural areas as it is an actual city like they have in other places. If you look at Statistics Canada's evaluation of the metro area however it's actually more densely populated and centralized than the North American norm.

I don't even live there anymore and this negative exceptionalism in Halifax still drives me crazy.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think even "HRM" was related to this attitude. You don't hear it as much today but people used to go on and on about how Halifax is as much an assemblage of rural areas as it is an actual city like they have in other places. If you look at Statistics Canada's evaluation of the metro area however it's actually more densely populated and centralized than the North American norm.

I don't even live there anymore and this negative exceptionalism in Halifax still drives me crazy.

Bang on.

As my screen name suggests, I grew up in Dartmouth when it was its own city, Bedford and Sackville were towns and Halifax was the "big city". Halifax county was "out in the country".

When HRM was formed, I personally felt a bit of disappointment as I had a lot of pride in "my" city. The county still seemed like another place entirely.

Years have passed, I've seen a good chunk of the world and have found that what I had perceived as a loss of identity for "my" city was actually not a loss, but a gain. No different than Scarborough still being Scarborough, Etobicoke still being Etobicoke, but all part of a larger "team" (sorry for all the quotation marks) that is Toronto. People I know who live there, tell strangers that they live in Toronto but tell friends they live in Etobicoke or York or whatever. Their communities still have an identity but they are clear that they are part of the "big city".

Halifax, I think, has yet to adopt this kind of thinking for the most part. It is changing, though, as other areas (the evil suburbs) become more densely populated. It's a slow evolution, though.