Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

What is there status of the "Optional" 28 Mark III cars for delivery in 2018?

Its my understanding that the MkIII trains will start arriving by January 2016, and be configured as 7 trains of 4 cars (A-C-C-B). They will be 'broken in' so they are ready for the Evergreen Opening in Summer 2016. Other sources say they will all be running by January 2016 - if so, we might see the first train set arriving later this year and in service.

There is an option to the contract for an additional 28 cars (7 trains of 4 cars), which if triggered will have the second set of 28 cars in place by Summer 2017.

There are lots of theories about where these new MkIII are to be used, but most convincing I've heard is they will have the MkIII trains on the King George - Waterfront Expo Line. This will free up several dozen MkI cars that may be reconfigured into 6-car trains and run on the reconfigured Millennium / Evergreen extension.

The remaining 4-car MkI and MkII trains can be used on either line as needed.

Another theory is that the 2nd order of 28 cars will allow the worst of the MkI cars to be scrapped. I'm not so sure, since they are spending around $1/3 million per car to refurbish the original 114 MkI cars

I haven't seen an official statement that the MkI refurb means the MkIII option will be dropped.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

I don't thing there has ever been much "misinformation," just a lack of information. Questions from residents were quite reasonable. All the news I've seen and read is that people were very much reassured by the public meetings.

I think the problem is the people who own property where buildings were not built correctly and the soil settled more than expected.

To give a reference point, I used to live somewhere, and then a truck stop was built on the neighboring property which was more than 50 meters away, but it caused hairline cracks to appear in places in the foundation and walls, and larger cracks in the drywall-ceiling.

The problem they have in Seattle is that they had to lower the water table, and it's causing the buildings and the Alaska-way Viaduct around the TBM to sink much faster than expected.

Sinkholes are largely the result of the wet weather meeting the loosened soil conditions. So when the TBM is pulled back, there is suddenly an airspace for it to collapse into. People don't know how tunnels are engineered, and that the only spaces that can become a sinkhole is the 2 meters or so directly in front of the TBM.

[Olden Retreiver]

Originally Posted by Kisai

I think the problem is the people who own property where buildings were not built correctly and the soil settled more than expected.

To give a reference point, I used to live somewhere, and then a truck stop was built on the neighboring property which was more than 50 meters away, but it caused hairline cracks to appear in places in the foundation and walls, and larger cracks in the drywall-ceiling.

The problem they have in Seattle is that they had to lower the water table, and it's causing the buildings and the Alaska-way Viaduct around the TBM to sink much faster than expected.

Sinkholes are largely the result of the wet weather meeting the loosened soil conditions. So when the TBM is pulled back, there is suddenly an airspace for it to collapse into. People don't know how tunnels are engineered, and that the only spaces that can become a sinkhole is the 2 meters or so directly in front of the TBM.

And what is the proposed method to get TBM Alice moving again on Evergreen? They are lowering the water table.

So far as I know this has everything to do with groundwater and soil/rock mechanics, and is not related to the weather in any way, but of course I can't prove that.

[TransitJack]

If the TBM was drilling into solid granite the entire way you'd have efficiencies in excavation related to a consistent density of the subterranean material. However, when tunnelling they encounter a wide variety of soil and rock conditions, which means they have to make adjustments along the way.

Now the hill is mostly glacial till deposited as a result of glaciation and a mix of other rock types. This means some complications should be expected.

On the flip side to granite I use as an example, if the whole hill was made of sand then the material would be way to soft to use a TBM. So its not just consistent material, but the type of material that effects a TBMs ability to progress.

I exaggerate with the granite and sand references, but the point is that density and consistency play roles in how the TBM Progresses. Though they do UG survey work beforehand and study the geology, there are still many "unknowns" as they TBM progresses.

Seattle's problems are pretty substantial, but not equal or necessarily comparable to the EG construction.

[Sheba]

A friend of mine (who's admittedly a bit of a conspiracy nut - although of course he'd deny it) thinks they didn't do enough soil surveys and that's part of why there have been sinkholes. I tried explaining that it's only happened right in front of the TBM when it was stopped but that hasn't made any difference. I have little doubt it's very similar for other people's view of what's going on.


On another note, I managed to ask an insider a few questions recently. I didn't get much (as expected) but I did get a couple bits of news.

1) Evergreen Line is the responsibility of the province until it's finished - so if we have questions about it we should be asking them.

2) TransLink hasn't forgotten about upgrading the platform signs to match what's on the Canada Line, and there might even be some news about it 'soon' (does that mean this year?). I'm guessing they'll upgrade the Millennium / Evergreen portion first.

3) Compass - it'll go live when it's ready (ok, that was a bit of a given). No news on when that'll be.

There was also hints that there are some projects being planned behind the scenes, but until they're 100% confirmed there won't be any official news. Not surprising, but of course now it has me curious.

[officedweller]

From Evergreen facebook


https://www.facebook.com/evergreenline

Feb 3rd Webcam pic (no Feb 4th pics):


http://wcs.pbaeng.com/projects/R1_Transit


http://wcs.pbaeng.com/projects/R1_Transit

[Olden Retreiver]

Originally Posted by Sheba

A friend of mine (who's admittedly a bit of a conspiracy nut - although of course he'd deny it) thinks they didn't do enough soil surveys and that's part of why there have been sinkholes. I tried explaining that it's only happened right in front of the TBM when it was stopped but that hasn't made any difference. I have little doubt it's very similar for other people's view of what's going on.
.
.
.

It's an entirely rational hypothesis that they "didn't do enough soil surveys," no conspiracy required.

It's a rare project of any sort that doesn't encounter some degree of problems because of inadequate information at the outset. It's called "risk," or more specifically in this case, "geological risk." Look it up. Here's a start:

https://www.rocscience.com/hoek/references/H2004b.pdf

If EGRT had perfect, complete information from the outset, the sinkholes probably would not have occurred (almost certainly not the second one, from lessons learned) and EGRT would have been able to meet their original promises of no impact to residents and no road closures during tunneling, and the tunnel would be at least 8-tenths finished instead of barely 1-third right now.

Take note I'm not blaming anyone here. I've worked on enough broadly comparable projects to know that stuff happens. The best you can do is to be upfront and honest, both inside your organization and externally.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

It's an entirely rational hypothesis that they "didn't do enough soil surveys," no conspiracy required.

It's a rare project of any sort that doesn't encounter some degree of problems because of inadequate information at the outset. It's called "risk," or more specifically in this case, "geological risk." Look it up. Here's a start:

Oh my friend is a conspiracy nut (on many things). They could have taken samples every two feet for the entire length of the tunnel and he'd still be saying the same thing. To him "risk" means someone failed somewhere.

[officedweller]

Webcam pic today (Feb 5th) of gantry walking over the steel box girder guideway:


http://wcs.pbaeng.com/projects/R1_Transit

[officedweller]

By Yellow Fever posted Jan 31st:

Originally Posted by Yellow Fever

Burquitlam Station section

IMG_8225 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

IMG_8227 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

Originally Posted by Yellow Fever

IMG_8228 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

IMG_8229 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

Originally Posted by Yellow Fever

IMG_8231 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

IMG_8232 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

Originally Posted by Yellow Fever

IMG_8233 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

IMG_8234 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

Originally Posted by Yellow Fever

IMG_8235 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

IMG_8236 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

Originally Posted by Yellow Fever

IMG_8238 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

IMG_8239 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

Originally Posted by Yellow Fever

IMG_8241 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

IMG_8242 by Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity, on Flickr

[logicbomb]

So is Burquitlam Station going to be another Holdem Station, where they will be awaiting a developer to integrate the station into a development?

I hate being "that guy" but it does look sort of bland if this isn't the case.

[Meraki]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

So is Burquitlam Station going to be another Holdem Station, where they will be awaiting a developer to integrate the station into a development?

I hate being "that guy" but it does look sort of bland if this isn't the case.

Nah, I think the whole line is going to be bland. Cheap design saves money.

Since certain groups complained about paying architects to design the "gold plated" Millennium Line stations we've decided that Austere is the new guiding principle for design.

Probably the only reason they're just not solely concrete is the BC Liberals' "Wood First" mandate.

[idunno]

Burquitlam = Marine Drive Station except for it's a little less stubby.

At least Inlet Centre and Moody Centre have some interesting curves.

I'm also glad that the steel columns are painted grey as well as the 'Canada Line White' for the most part.

[Metro-One]

Looks like a train station to me!

I love this forums obsession that every train station must be some unique work of art.

Honestly, all that I care about is that they are functional, clean, maintained, and well lit.

Major hubs / key stations should be held to higher design standards, but a basic stop such as Burquitlam? Clean and functional is great for me.

Most train stations in the world are indeed very plain. I have no problem with this.

The joke of this conversation is that a few of the Evergreen Line stations will be quite unique in character (Ioco / Port Moody).

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Looks like a train station to me!

I love this forums obsession that every train station must be some unique work of art.

Honestly, all that I care about is that they are functional, clean, maintained, and well lit.

Major hubs / key stations should be held to higher design standards, but a basic stop such as Burquitlam? Clean and functional is great for me.

Most train stations in the world are indeed very plain. I have no problem with this.

The joke of this conversation is that a few of the Evergreen Line stations will be quite unique in character (Ioco / Port Moody).

You sir are a king amongst men!

Plus it looks like Burquitlam Station is going to be ready for service in a few short months. No reason not to open it early for public use. Otherwise it will just stay idle for over a year while we wait for the tunneling guys to get their act together...

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Plus it looks like Burquitlam Station is going to be ready for service in a few short months. No reason not to open it early for public use. Otherwise it will just stay idle for over a year while we wait for the tunneling guys to get their act together...

Perhaps you missed this "Evergreen Line is the responsibility of the province until it's finished". There is no way they're going to hand it over to TransLink early to run a train to only the first station of the new line. The chance of photo ops for the gov is worth more than making you happy today.

[Meraki]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Plus it looks like Burquitlam Station is going to be ready for service in a few short months. No reason not to open it early for public use. Otherwise it will just stay idle for over a year while we wait for the tunneling guys to get their act together...

Why do you post every few weeks about opening Burquitlam. Nobody cares. It's a non-notable station that may be finished before the rest of the line. It's not worth the effort of re-configuring all the other lines to take people from Lougheed to slightly up North Road. The 97 is still running.

Host a town hall proposing the trains head to Burquitlam instead of Waterfront via Columbia. Post a trip report of how you get laughed out of the room.

And to counterpoint the "But the Millennium Line to Braid!" inevitably coming, that could be implemented without much (if any) disruption to the normal operations. With our current setup at -most- we could do is a shuttle between Lougheed and Burquitlam. But why do that? The 97 is still running and does more.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Meraki

Why do you post every few weeks about opening Burquitlam. Nobody cares. It's a non-notable station that may be finished before the rest of the line. It's not worth the effort of re-configuring all the other lines to take people from Lougheed to slightly up North Road. The 97 is still running.

Host a town hall proposing the trains head to Burquitlam instead of Waterfront via Columbia. Post a trip report of how you get laughed out of the room.

And to counterpoint the "But the Millennium Line to Braid!" inevitably coming, that could be implemented without much (if any) disruption to the normal operations. With our current setup at -most- we could do is a shuttle between Lougheed and Burquitlam. But why do that? The 97 is still running and does more.

Ooooh the hostility! Why am I not surprised...

Its funny....people keep on bringing up Seattle's tunneling woes despite it have NOTHING to do with the Evergreen Line. People keep on bringing up old tired ranting about how the Evergreen Line Stations are bland, despite them being perfectly fine. And people obsesses about the Lougheed Station roof or wrong railing again and again and again.

Hence I will keep on bringing up the Burquitlam Station should be opening early, because there is no technical reason why it shouldn't. All the excuses of it not opening early has more to do with some philosophical idealism that its all or none....open all of Evergreen Line at the same time or don't open at all. So even if the tunneling gets screwed and delays the line for more than a year, just leave a perfectly completed and ready to use station that would benefit so many people...just because of some stupid obsession with "disruption of normal operations".

Frankly, "normal operations" have been disrupted ever since the BC NDP decided not to build the Evergreen Line at the first place! Why do you think trains are slow approaching Lougheed Station from Braid?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Hence I will keep on bringing up the Burquitlam Station should be opening early, because there is no technical reason why it shouldn't.

I'm pretty much on your side. The only reasons I can see not to do it would be if more rolling stock were needed or if there were some sort of potential cost savings for qualifying the entire line all at once rather than in sections. I guess there could be extra cost for interim signage as well, depends on how much that would be.

In the meantime, there's a not inconsiderable number of people in the Burquitlam station catchment area (many of which are in new developments that were motivated by the promise of Skytrain) that could be benefiting from the service. It's also an opportunity to "try out" the new train routing plan to see if there are any unexpected technical or customer experience related kinks that need to be worked out before everyone from PoCo piles onto the system. And finally, it would provide an early confirmation of ridership projections, which could be used as input to the decision whether or not to go ahead on the option for additional trainsets.

That all being said, I'm sure they have a fairly complex project plan that would need to be significantly overhauled in order to do this, and there'd be some real costs associated with doing that.

[splashflash]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm pretty much on your side. The only reasons I can see not to do it would be if more rolling stock were needed or if there were some sort of potential cost savings for qualifying the entire line all at once rather than in sections. I guess there could be extra cost for interim signage as well, depends on how much that would be.

Is there a cross-over so that trains can switch direction, or would they've few enough so they could do that at Lougheed?

The 555 moving to Lougheed Stn from Braid would improve the logistics. 555 riders going to the University could take advantage of enhanced train service from Lockheed west. Maybe a short-line between Burquitlam and Production-University would make sense, allowing interim trials of the cross-overs between Production and LakeCity that in the future would be the Waterfront-Production turnaround, if I have been reading correctly in this forum.

I am with you too Queetz.